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Ski

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4th March, 2011 at 04:34:09 -

"Usually it's the client who expects loyality and support from the company, not the other way around."

Nope, it works both ways.

 
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UrbanMonk

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4th March, 2011 at 04:35:18 -


Originally Posted by Johnny Look
urbanmonk:
Buggier doesn't necessarily mean worse, and other than the occasional weird crash when exiting the program I don't recall experiencing any other bug or crash with the last build.

If I wanted to point out what construct has that mmf2 doesn't I could start with default movements that actually work, built in physics, object selection that doesn't break if you use many objects, built in pathfinding etc...



Yeah, the built in movements are better, but, but...

They still don't have any worth while exporters yet, even though html 5 is great it's nothing compared to iphone, java, and flash.

EDIT: Aaaand I don't feel it's worth my time to develop a game/app in something that has a very limited opportunities for exposure.

Edited by UrbanMonk

 
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4th March, 2011 at 06:51:56 -


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk

Yeah, the built in movements are better, but, but...

They still don't have any worth while exporters yet, even though html 5 is great it's nothing compared to iphone, java, and flash.

EDIT: Aaaand I don't feel it's worth my time to develop a game/app in something that has a very limited opportunities for exposure.



You must realize though that this is like super early for C2. It's like a fetus. The whole idea C2 is based around is to be super flexible. HTML5 may be the only runtime they are focused on right now, but its being built with the idea that run-times can be added onto the software like a plugin.

 
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alastair john jack

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4th March, 2011 at 10:39:20 -

I like Construct's pairing system, picking system, behaviours and event system (especially subevents), image editor (unlimted action points too), and it feels more powerful (though I dont have much experience with MMF2's HWA version). The only thing I like better about MMF2 at the moment is that it has more exporting options.

 
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Jess Bowers

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4th March, 2011 at 14:58:47 -


Originally Posted by DCI Hagar
I was talking in general about ribbon interfaces (does anyone prefer Office 2007 or later over 2003?). For example in office 2007 do I really (please tell me if I do not ) have to sacrifice that much screen space for styles? As far as I know I have no option to set it back to the 2003 method of choosing styles which took up a lot less screen real estate. This is my big gripe against ribbons, I have no control (as far as I know) on optimising the interface for things I use often. These things I would have as toolbars, and items I use rarely I would leave in the menus. It's as if MS just had to change the interface to make office look new. Thank god I hardly use office these days, LaTex for the win !



Outside of the MMF2/Construct2 debate, I actually prefer the new ribbon system over the old menu system (where it makes sense). The menu system isn't bad, but, let's be honest, it's not great either. Menus do an adequate job of organizing an applications functionality - but they have their own inherent issues.

To address some of your issues:

- Do I have to sacrifice that much space for styles?
No, you don't. You can remove nearly all of the styles from your Quick Access Gallery and the style portion of the ribbon will shrink dramatically. You can even remove styles from the ribbon entirely if you'd like.

- This is my big gripe against ribbons, I have no control (as far as I know) on optimising the interface for things I use often.
You have a lot more control over the ribbon than you did the old menu system. You can add and remove tabs. You can customize each tab. You can create your own tabs (in much the same way you had custom toolbars before). Or, if you don't want to click on a custom tab, you can add the stuff you do most "often" to the Quick Access Toolbar. For example, I've added the Print option to the Quick Access Toolbar in Word. But, if you really want to do things fast then you should stick to hot keys - which are (and always will be) the fastest to do something.

- Stated by others: Takes up too much space.
If you're not using the ribbon, minimize it (CTRL+F1 or use the minimize arrow). You can still access it quickly... even by hot keys.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion on ribbons. I'm a long time user of many office versions and think the biggest issue here is that "it's different." The issues people have sound a lot like the ones I heard when everyone switched from WordPerfect to Word. Except it was hot keys vs. toolbars back then.

 

Johnny Look

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4th March, 2011 at 15:51:48 -


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk

Originally Posted by Johnny Look
urbanmonk:
Buggier doesn't necessarily mean worse, and other than the occasional weird crash when exiting the program I don't recall experiencing any other bug or crash with the last build.

If I wanted to point out what construct has that mmf2 doesn't I could start with default movements that actually work, built in physics, object selection that doesn't break if you use many objects, built in pathfinding etc...



Yeah, the built in movements are better, but, but...

They still don't have any worth while exporters yet, even though html 5 is great it's nothing compared to iphone, java, and flash.

EDIT: Aaaand I don't feel it's worth my time to develop a game/app in something that has a very limited opportunities for exposure.



I was talking about Construct 0.X actually. Construct 2 doesn't even have built in movements yet.


 
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UrbanMonk

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4th March, 2011 at 16:04:33 -

Well if Construct ever has the options mmf has as far as exporters go then I'll give it another shot, until then it's not worth my time.

 
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Hagar

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4th March, 2011 at 18:38:32 -


Originally Posted by Jess Bowers

Originally Posted by DCI Hagar
I was talking in general about ribbon interfaces (does anyone prefer Office 2007 or later over 2003?). For example in office 2007 do I really (please tell me if I do not ) have to sacrifice that much screen space for styles? As far as I know I have no option to set it back to the 2003 method of choosing styles which took up a lot less screen real estate. This is my big gripe against ribbons, I have no control (as far as I know) on optimising the interface for things I use often. These things I would have as toolbars, and items I use rarely I would leave in the menus. It's as if MS just had to change the interface to make office look new. Thank god I hardly use office these days, LaTex for the win !



Outside of the MMF2/Construct2 debate, I actually prefer the new ribbon system over the old menu system (where it makes sense). The menu system isn't bad, but, let's be honest, it's not great either. Menus do an adequate job of organizing an applications functionality - but they have their own inherent issues.

To address some of your issues:

- Do I have to sacrifice that much space for styles?
No, you don't. You can remove nearly all of the styles from your Quick Access Gallery and the style portion of the ribbon will shrink dramatically. You can even remove styles from the ribbon entirely if you'd like.

- This is my big gripe against ribbons, I have no control (as far as I know) on optimising the interface for things I use often.
You have a lot more control over the ribbon than you did the old menu system. You can add and remove tabs. You can customize each tab. You can create your own tabs (in much the same way you had custom toolbars before). Or, if you don't want to click on a custom tab, you can add the stuff you do most "often" to the Quick Access Toolbar. For example, I've added the Print option to the Quick Access Toolbar in Word. But, if you really want to do things fast then you should stick to hot keys - which are (and always will be) the fastest to do something.

- Stated by others: Takes up too much space.
If you're not using the ribbon, minimize it (CTRL+F1 or use the minimize arrow). You can still access it quickly... even by hot keys.

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their opinion on ribbons. I'm a long time user of many office versions and think the biggest issue here is that "it's different." The issues people have sound a lot like the ones I heard when everyone switched from WordPerfect to Word. Except it was hot keys vs. toolbars back then.



I tried adding things to the quick access toolbar ages ago, yet they still remained on the ribbon. As far as I know in office 2007 there is no option to actually reorder/optimise the deafult ribbon tabs. The styles setting in 2007 is just stupid in my opinion - I do not need to see little pictures of the styles all the time when the ribbon is not minimised, hence the waste of space. Only tutorials I found on optimising 07 involved using XML, and I am too damn lazy to do that .

As Sketchy said a lot of people dislike the ribbon as there is software available on sale to make 07/10 look like 03 haha.

I have still yet to see a professional/academic (academics lol at the thought of using Word, as references and formatting are a million times better in LaTeX) software package to use ribbons .

To be honest I dont really care what people use to get the job done, but I think the software should allow menu/toolbar or the ribbon interface .

 
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GamesterXIII



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4th March, 2011 at 19:37:50 -

Perhaps they should consider something more like Unity - in terms of licensing that is.


Originally Posted by Sketchy
I like that it's going to be based on html5/canvas, but unfortunately they're keeping the ribbon interface, which means it will still be a steaming pile of crap. Too bad...



Glad I'm not the only one that hated the interface.

 
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Jess Bowers

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4th March, 2011 at 20:33:55 -


Originally Posted by DCI Hagar
I tried adding things to the quick access toolbar ages ago, yet they still remained on the ribbon. As far as I know in office 2007 there is no option to actually reorder/optimise the deafult ribbon tabs. The styles setting in 2007 is just stupid in my opinion - I do not need to see little pictures of the styles all the time when the ribbon is not minimised, hence the waste of space. Only tutorials I found on optimising 07 involved using XML, and I am too damn lazy to do that .

As Sketchy said a lot of people dislike the ribbon as there is software available on sale to make 07/10 look like 03 haha.



Adding items to the Quick Access Toolbar does not immediately remove them from a tab on the ribbon. In Word 2010, you'd click File > Options > Customize Ribbon to remove items.

To reorder the tabs, again File > Options > Customize Ribbon and use "Move Up" and "Move Down" buttons.

The Styles section will take up as much space as you let it. Sounds like you need to remove styles from your Quick Style Gallery... which is the visual section you're not liking. Removing styles from the Quick Style Gallery does not remove them from the document and they can still be selected and applied.

Agreed. A lot of people do not like the ribbon. But, I'd argue it's mostly an issue with change. If find that new users typically find it easier to navigate.


Originally Posted by DCI Hagar
I have still yet to see a professional/academic (academics lol at the thought of using Word, as references and formatting are a million times better in LaTeX) software package to use ribbons .



Not sure about academics, but I'd estimate that more than 90% of professionals use MS Word (at least in the US) as their word processor. The only migrations I see these days are towards Microsoft Office (and away from Lotus Notes, GroupWise, etc.). Some smaller shops may have other office packages but most large corporations have licensed MS Office Professional Plus.

Formatting and referencing are pretty easy (even with the new ribbon system) and I haven't heard much griping from the technical communication community (my wife is a technical writer and a member of the STC - http://www.stc.org/). I don't know much about LaTeX, but I can tell you this... I've never heard of it before. So, it may be a niche title in the academic community. It certainly has no footprint in the professional community.

Anyway, not trying to argue here. Just pointing out that not all folks hate the ribbon.

 

Jenswa

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4th March, 2011 at 20:58:06 -

What's all that talk about ribbons? Who doesn't love ribbons? I think they're real cute.

And I think the ones in MS Office 2007 works really well, but yeah the ribbon tends to take up a lot of screen estate. It just like the new windows 7 taskbar which isn't 32 pixels high, but more like 48 px. Fortunately my screen resolution also was upgraded with my new laptop, so it doesn't really matter because overall I have more screen estate to use

But you people probably are right that the interface and not just the ribbon of construct isn't as efficient as it could be.

I like html5 with canvas 2D and javascript a lot, in fact I've been programming almost exclusively with it for almost over a year. But it isn't the holy grail and especially on low spec machines it's dead slow or was it dog slow? That's quite a bit of drawback and lacks some other features like a high resolution timer for measuring performance, etcetera. It's a healthy technology in development, but I doubt they can improve it so much that it will run on low spec machines.

The fact that everyone can write plugins for it is a nice one, but why isn't that possible for MMF2? I am not up to date with that situation.

 
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Marko

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4th March, 2011 at 21:23:54 -

Not tried Construct 2, though i will get round to having a look sometime. Surely competition for MMF2/Clickteam can't be anything but a good thing for us lot? If it's better, we get a choice and Clickteam have to "up their game" to compete. If it's not as good, then we don't lose out anyways. Either way, i don't feel any kind of loyalty to Clickteam or any other company: i simply use the program that fits my needs best. If a better alternative for me comes along (and it will one day, no doubt) then i'll probably stop using MMF2 and use that instead.

The ribbon-talk puts me off though - for the record, i hate ribbons and the change in MS's Office suite was a big pain in my arse!

 
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Hagar

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4th March, 2011 at 22:05:35 -


Originally Posted by Jess Bowers

Originally Posted by DCI Hagar
I tried adding things to the quick access toolbar ages ago, yet they still remained on the ribbon. As far as I know in office 2007 there is no option to actually reorder/optimise the deafult ribbon tabs. The styles setting in 2007 is just stupid in my opinion - I do not need to see little pictures of the styles all the time when the ribbon is not minimised, hence the waste of space. Only tutorials I found on optimising 07 involved using XML, and I am too damn lazy to do that .

As Sketchy said a lot of people dislike the ribbon as there is software available on sale to make 07/10 look like 03 haha.



Adding items to the Quick Access Toolbar does not immediately remove them from a tab on the ribbon. In Word 2010, you'd click File > Options > Customize Ribbon to remove items.

To reorder the tabs, again File > Options > Customize Ribbon and use "Move Up" and "Move Down" buttons.

The Styles section will take up as much space as you let it. Sounds like you need to remove styles from your Quick Style Gallery... which is the visual section you're not liking. Removing styles from the Quick Style Gallery does not remove them from the document and they can still be selected and applied.

Agreed. A lot of people do not like the ribbon. But, I'd argue it's mostly an issue with change. If find that new users typically find it easier to navigate.


Originally Posted by DCI Hagar
I have still yet to see a professional/academic (academics lol at the thought of using Word, as references and formatting are a million times better in LaTeX) software package to use ribbons .



Not sure about academics, but I'd estimate that more than 90% of professionals use MS Word (at least in the US) as their word processor. The only migrations I see these days are towards Microsoft Office (and away from Lotus Notes, GroupWise, etc.). Some smaller shops may have other office packages but most large corporations have licensed MS Office Professional Plus.

Formatting and referencing are pretty easy (even with the new ribbon system) and I haven't heard much griping from the technical communication community (my wife is a technical writer and a member of the STC - http://www.stc.org/). I don't know much about LaTeX, but I can tell you this... I've never heard of it before. So, it may be a niche title in the academic community. It certainly has no footprint in the professional community.

Anyway, not trying to argue here. Just pointing out that not all folks hate the ribbon.



I think 07 is a lot more limited in configuration options (as Sketchy mentioned 2010 is better in this aspect) becuase all I get is options to add things to the quick access bar from the other tabs in Word Options, I think Sketchy mentioned this too. I am still of the opinion that I have been using Word since version 6 on Windows 3.11 and the system remained the same pretty much until 2003. I had years of familiarity, why on earth change something? It would be like deciding to redesign a car and putting the pedals/steering wheel wherever I fancy .

Anway LaTex and Bibtex bibliographies are very common place in UK universities and a lot of technical papers I have read from academia, industrial guys and research labs have also been produced in it. LaTex is just the type setting package, but many options exist for using it. LyX and Jabref are great tools I use quite often, and they are free.

http://www.lyx.org/
http://jabref.sourceforge.net/

I would seriously suggest anyone writing a thesis to check it out. Referencing and formatting is so much easier once you have got used to it .

Anyway on a more on topic oriented point, I do think having construct is a good thing - competition is always a good thing. Hopefully it will make Clickteam pick up the pace (how many years have the default movements been pants ? )

Edited by an Administrator

 
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Hagar

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4th March, 2011 at 22:16:22 -

On a further note

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Edited by an Administrator

 
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Jess Bowers

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5th March, 2011 at 02:32:18 -

Don't tell me... you hate kittens, too?!

Just kidding.

 
   

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