Video game music effects could reliably be produced by an engine, imho. The repetition and simplistic choruses. However, that doesn't speed up production over simply using a tune from VGMusic or anything. TGF/MMF already have pretty much the ideal level editors, and TGF the ideal art tools. I guess all we could really do is create higher-level engines so that people new to the community could create easy games like platformers, easier.
Agleed on the code-it forum stickies, and ofc on the attitude. I've made a point about trying to offer step-by-step instructions to people asking ridiculously easy questions.
We could always try to find people who don't have a life, and/or we could ask people to submit games regardless to how good they are. Perhaps we could even tell people that we don't mind breakout or pong clones.
On a more serious note, we need more people who are willing to help others with graphics, because that seems to be the hardest part for most people who make games here. It's not really a talent to just pick up an be able to use MMF2, the talent is more into trying to convince someone your project is worth their time to assist with.
All the people who actually have very good talents in the fields we need though (such as sprite work), have no time to spare. They either got bored of the hobby, or have moved on to bigger things. It's quite sad.
It'd help if there wasn't such a stigma about using library graphics.
If I or someone else made a graphics lib, chances are people would be shunned for using it.
It might also help having a second domain or portal that doesn't include 'games' in the title. Cos although 'Create Games' is gonna get you a few accidental hits by kids that just typed it at random, you're also gonna get blocked by every school on earth.
If Websense can block the official page for West Sussex County Council simply because it contains the word 'Sex', I don't think 'Create-Games' has much of a chance, lol.
Back when I was in highschool (and even middleschool, sheesh), our computers blocked Create-Games.com, for games, so I simply went on the library admins computer when he wasn't looking and added it to the list of exceptions. Serves him for leaving that page open
If Websense can block the official page for West Sussex County Council simply because it contains the word 'Sex', I don't think 'Create-Games' has much of a chance, lol.
Ah, so you see the same non-images up here that I do. No photobucket, imageshack, a million others. It stinks when those images are used to illustrate a point(s) in an article about Bezier Curves! Only the wiki ones show up to me here.
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DaVince This fool just HAD to have a custom rating
Registered 04/09/2004
Points 7998
20th September, 2007 at 14:47:04 -
"you're also gonna get blocked by every school on earth."
i found out recently there are computers with internet at work. Apparently someone went to a job center website and it got blocked before their next visit.
"
It'd help if there wasn't such a stigma about using library graphics. "
Because I have seen them used one too many times before Library graphics Irritate me. New graphics interest me. Even lame graphics are preferable to library graphics.
As for "speeding up the game making process" i actually have an idea.
A bunch of game designers from around the world design one level each. The level could be any type of game they wanted but would have to be solvable or at least have some way to proceed onto the next level (to prevent people getting stuck),
alternatively
the game could have a "skip level button" or ..any level could be accessible immediately from the title screen.
These practicalities would be necessary, as when dealing with multiple “contributions” it would be disappointing for the contributor to see that his or her level is skipped or missed while playing the final game.
All the levels would be sent via email to one individual who oversaw the project. The levels would be combined into one single executable form. On the title screen the names of all the contributors would be listed with reference to their level, so everyone would get due credit.
It is my understanding that this process will create a long, unique an exiting game.
The benefits of multiple collaborations are: The uniqueness of the whole project will be increased.
Because the effort is spread out over many different people no single individual will be overloaded with work and succumb to inactivity.
If people are interested we could do this. I am personally interested in the project because any game featuring a “high level of variety” as this game would most certainly have, excites me.
I can respect that at most of our level, game design is a mere hobby, but you have to keep at least some traditions in place. One of which includes making a game and then taking priding of all the work that went into it. You just can't do that if every time you or someone else looks at it, they see someone else's library graphics. It's different when you ask for someone to make graphics specifically for that game, but library graphics takes all that pride away.
But by that standard, none of us deserve to feel satisfied after our achievements - because hey, did we code the rendering engine? Um, no. Did we code the extensions? No. The basic runtime? No. The GUI? Mostly, no. Effects, no; Level interpretation, no; Animation engines, no; Music, mostly no; Sound FX, mostly no.
Where do you draw the line? And regardless of where you draw the line, why should we draw it in that same place?
For pity's sake, we don't even complain when someone (providing credit of course) uses an opensource pre-made movement engine.
If we complain that people use lib graphics, we're undermining the very concept of Click. To do the hard stuff so that the users can make games.
My only issue with lib graphics is that most of them suck. And that's something I'm sure a few of us can rectify.
Multimedia Fusion 2 is a design and compiling software. In other words, it's a TOOL If you take Photoshop and use the library's that come with it to make something, it's no longer your original art, it's an edit. Same goes with Multimedia Fusion 2.
If you want to keep going on with what you said DeadmanDines, you're basically telling me that the only way to take pride in your work is if you go into a computer and design a game with binary code.
Using library graphics by absolutely no means, undermines the concept of Click, because the concept of Click involves using specific SOFTWARE, tools, to design games and applications.
Edit: I agree the idea behind using sound library's, using what I said, it's not right. I believe the reason it's overlooked though is because not everyone has special high tech sound recording studios, while in the same aspect, everyone does have Microsoft Paint.
"If you want to keep going on with what you said DeadmanDines, you're basically telling me that the only way to take pride in your work is if you go into a computer and design a game with binary code."
Lol, no, I said 'By that standard...', I was extending what you'd begun. That's the point, IF using graphic libraries robs a person of all pride in their game (as you seemed to be suggesting), then what about using extensions and open source engines? Graphics is just one aspect, there's also sound, coding, runtime, music. We can use premade things there with no fuss, but not graphics.
And while people have MS Paint, not everyone has the skill to use it well. After all, I've got a couple of music apps but it doesn't change that I have no musical talent. Unless I go with VGMusic.com, my games will have no music, cos there's no way I'm inflicting my Midis on mankind. But music from VGM doesn't bother anyone because the only stigma here is with graphics.
If we're asking what things are keeping the click community down, I'd say this is high on the list (in my opinion). Having a library can inspire you in the same way that having a premade tune from VGM can inspire you. It's another way of developing ideas.
I'm sorry if I've been argumentative about this (yeh, I have been, my bad), but Sprite Libs have been extremely useful to me. If we just analyse the pros and cons:
CONS
- They can result in several games having the same or similar graphics
- If you always rely on other people's skills, you'll never learn
- The ones shipped with MMF are tacky
- People who use only lib graphics will have to find pride in the rest of their hard work instead, like coding, storyline, level design, etc. They can't have the pride of 'my game looks awesome thanks to me'.
PROS
+ They give you source material to work with, so that you CAN learn (I personally used Mug'O'Tea's libs extensively, largely to improve)
+ They make for a good base that you can edit (so a lib with four cars can easily be edited into a lib with 24 cars, whilst gaining experience. I was helped by creating new Zelda characters based on the original Link sprite, for example)
+ They're easily the best way to see character animation frame-by-frame, and learn how to implement your own animations
+ They can spark ideas for new games
+ They can reduce development time - after all, you can have explosion libs. If I'm an awesome artist, but suck at explosions, I could just use a lib in addition to my own work.
+ They provide something that sprite artists can do if they find building a complete game too hard, and don't have the circumstances to commit to a team project
+ People with great ideas can finally have the graphics to express those ideas. It must suck to have an amazing character idea, but his sprite looks like the dude in 'Hey Arnold'.
+ Less ugly games, which is gonna be a good advert to the click community.
I don't know how strong I'm coming on, I'm not trying to be rude, but I agree with what you're saying about using open source engines, sound effects, music, etc. I think what I'm getting at though is, yes graphics are only 1 aspect of the game, I absolutely agree, but they are also the most commonly looked upon aspect for the most part, along side with the engine itself.
See, when you think about sound effects, you don't really think about them. If you see metal hit metal, you expect to hear a metal sound. Whether or not it's the same metal sound in every single thing you've played or even seen in movies, it still sounds correct.
Music, I agree that this is another major aspect of originality stripped away when you use library's. No real exceptions here, this goes along with library graphics.
Gameplay, why re-create the real? Thats why open source engines exist, and thats why so many people use them. Take Unreal for example, that engine is open source, incredibly flexible, and allows people to design games with ease, but not remove the quality aspect.
Like I said earlier, when people play a game, the graphics and even music, are the two things they notice the most. The rest of the stuff such as Sounds and Gameplay, the less you notice them the better. When you use custom graphics, it's a sign that you as the designer, truly put hard work into the game, because you either made the graphics yourself, or you took the initiative to find a good designer. Either way, it shows you're a good director if you will.
If you see graphics in a library, and then you see those same graphics in a game... most people generally just think lower of the designer. It's basically like "This guy must have real pride in the game he made, if he can't even care enough about the game to get custom graphics."
There are so many advantages to library graphics, but I think when it comes down to it, the work involved in making a completely original game is just something you take pride in, and library graphics take that away from you, both as the designer and as the player.
Originally Posted by BrandonC Gameplay, why re-create the real? Thats why open source engines exist, and thats why so many people use them. Take Unreal for example, that engine is open source, incredibly flexible, and allows people to design games with ease, but not remove the quality aspect.
You mean the original Unreal engine? Cause if you mean in general, then Silicon Knights would like to have some words with you.
I can absolutely never find a betatester when I try to work on a game. I've had this problem for 3 projects in a row; oftentimes a week or more I'd try to get someone, then finally I'd give up, post it as a regular download, and abandon it since nobodys even interested enough to BETA it, much less play the full game.
I think the trouble with a large and flexible open source higher level engine for MMF is that it takes a very long time to complete, is prone to extreme slowdown due to the wide array of features, and also it can become obselete very quickly.
I started working on an big engine project a while back. My goal was to create a particle engine, lighting engine, physics engine, AI engine, Sound engine and merge them all into one big lump of coolness. Trouble is, about halfway into the development of the engine, MMF2 was released. Hence, extensions that I'd previously relied on were not available, new features made many design choices obselete and then there was talk of a 3D extension. I thought it best at this point to hang about and maybe work on something different while i see how things pan out.
I'm not complaining about the fact that MMF2 came out, far from it, and I don't think the hours I spent working on that engine were wasted time. It taught me a lot about making games. My spare time project is The Orphanage, which started as a not very ambitious game, but has slowly gone through iteration after iteration and I think it is by far the best complete engine I have made in MMF. The trouble is, although the code is well commented and organised it, I don't think anyone but me would have a clue what it all means
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Originally Posted by Phizzy [Ectoprods] The Unreal engine isn't open-source. They licence it to developers. It costs a lot of money.
I think you guys are missing the point I'm trying to make in favor of some loose details I didn't think I needed to tie together. Even if you pay $3000+ for a graphics library that everyone knows about, it is still not going to appeal to a lot of people merely because everyone knows about it and everyone will be able to look at your game and say that you were lazy enough to just buy graphics from a library.
Brandon, we can't get your point because you're jumping all over the place here. You started with engines and now you're talking about graphical libraries. Which one is it?
I think I'm going to write a small clean article that voices my opinion over the matter of library graphics, because you're right Shab, I'm throwing my opinion all different directions and it's not working out. Sorry bout that. Give me a few hours (day at the most) and I'll have an article up.
Plenty of ways to speed up a game's making, most of the stuff you guys have mentioned I've attempted to do for years. But then someone would shoot the idea down or someone would spearhead the operation and ruin it with his lust for glory.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
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