When I first saw the Recommendation Stars, I thought it was a way of crediting some games that were very good but unlucky enough to have competed with the likes of Knytt Stories and Bonesaw for GOTW. But, unfortunately, that's wrong.
Honestly, I'm finding the whole system to be very strange as it uses one admin's preference for games as its foundation. It's not based on reviews, or comments, or ratings. I was under the impression that this was a user-generated content site, but when the staff get the final word on whether a game is worth playing, we begin moving in a Total Klik direction (i.e. magazine format.) What I mean is, we're one step away from a dedicated "Recommended by The Daily Click" page; a hall of fame where admins can place games THEY like, regardless of popular opinion. Everyone ok with that?
Admins, you guys do a great job with administrating the website, but your personal opinion should count the same as anyone else's.
I like them as well. I think the admins deserve a way of recommending their picks, and I think they've picked good games so far. They aren't forcing anything on anyone.
I think the current admins’ picks so far were somewhat unbalanced and biased, mostly in the sense of leaving out games that should be highlighted, or giving games a HIGHLY recommended that that didn't really deserve it. I’ll illustrate this with Treasure Hunter Man being only a recommended game, while Lil' Pirate being HIGHLY recommended.
I don’t mind editor’s choice sort of stuff. I kinda like being pointed toward the good stuff, but not all people are cut out for this.
<a href="http://lachie.phatcode.net">The Maker Of Stuff</a>
Originally Posted by Shroomlock Well it's no different than a magazine editor offering their picks of movies and books. It doesn't mean that every reader will always agree.
Originally Posted by -Adam- Except that's a magazine, not an online internet community.
This is my point. If something is recommended by "The Daily Click", it makes sense that such a recommendation should be based on cumulative ratings and a general consensus from the community members that it's definitely worth recommending. And isn't that what the stars rating system is for?
I also agree with what Lachie said about it being unbalanced and biased. I wasn't going to pick out individual games but that's a good example.
It's up to the admins to pick out which ones they like. I know all the games I would highly recommend have already been highly recommended. I'd also recommend a good game, if I've played it, but haven't seen many games worth recommending myself that haven't been recommended yet or actually played a "highly recommended" game, which didn't deserve to be recommended.
I won't actually recommend a game that "missed GOTW", just because it missed by a few votes. You've got to play it and see if it's worth it. A silver trophy might be nice, next time that happens, though.
I say we make Shroomlock an admin and let him recommend games
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
The people who make good game could make reviews too. Why won't you people write reviews? They're worth so much more than the recommendations.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Also up until now there were no real complaints about the system, i just had a quick peak but the games that were chosen seems perfectly in sync with popularity of what the users were thinking of the game.
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But I was right? When was the last time a current TDC admin released or even worked on a game? I don't really have anything personal against the majority of them, I just think sometimes you need an admin who's more enthusiastic about making games. You also forgot Flava and Clubsoft
LOL, I find that it adds a taste of irony to this thread that one of the admins' games is Highly Recommended. And Adam's isn't even Recommended, even though it's probably going to pwn this week's GOTW. I'm not going to do anything about it since I haven't downloaded either
I think the only problem with the system is that not all games that deserve to be recommended are recommended, though many of the games that deserve to be are.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Nim would be an amazing admin for this site. As for getting a recommended star- comments from people are worth so much more to me, seeming as the admins don't normally even post saying why they recommended the game in the first place.
Originally Posted by Rikus i just had a quick peak but the games that were chosen seems perfectly in sync with popularity of what the users were thinking of the game.
Two of the games on the Top Downloads list are "Highly Recommended", while 5 others are not recommended at all! Meanwhile, "Highly Recommended" games are nowhere to be seen in the charts and getting some pretty mediocre reviews. What were you saying about being perfectly in sync with users' thinking?
Originally Posted by M LOL, I find that it adds a taste of irony to this thread that one of the admins' games is Highly Recommended. And Adam's isn't even Recommended, even though it's probably going to pwn this week's GOTW. I'm not going to do anything about it since I haven't downloaded either
I think the only problem with the system is that not all games that deserve to be recommended are recommended, though many of the games that deserve to be are.
This is exactly the point I'm trying to make, and I'm quoting another admin here! There's too much inconsistency and scope for favouritism for a system like this to work.
What the hell? Saying one game doesn't deserve a 'highly recommended' when another does is just as much one persons opinion as the Admins choice is. Making your argument a bit... hypocritical.
Although it's still true that it's open to bias.
and considering people see that before anything else it's probably enough to make someone download a game before they've seen the rest of the membership's opinion.
If I wanted to find a quality game on the site, I'd trust an admin recommended game over a game in the top ten. The user ratings system is good to have, but it's also pretty flakey sometimes and can depend on a number of factors like troll ratings, busy weeks, slow weeks, popularity of the game maker, etc. User rating systems will always be volatile, it's good to have an alternate system set by a more "stable" aspect of the community.
Originally Posted by AndyUK What the hell? Saying one game doesn't deserve a 'highly recommended' when another does is just as much one persons opinion as the Admins choice is. Making your argument a bit... hypocritical.
My basis for saying that certain games don't deserve to be recommended was their rating and comments, NOT my own opinion. It was in response to Rikus' post about the ratings being perfectly in sync with user opinions.
Well, yeah, you'd expect the people who recommend those games to actually play them, and you can't expect all the admins to play every single game out there. Whether or not they're good. It's a flaw that's always stay a flaw unless the admins actually play every game up there. I played Knytt Stories and Eternal Daughter, I really liked them, so I highly recommend them. Aside from that, I don't recommend them just because everyone else did.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Originally Posted by Shroomlock If I wanted to find a quality game on the site, I'd trust an admin recommended game over a game in the top ten.
Well, this is where we disagree I guess.
Originally Posted by Shroomlock
factors like troll ratings, busy weeks, slow weeks, popularity of the game maker
Troll ratings, I'd like to think that the admins are taking care of. Busy/slow weeks may affect the GOTW results but not a game's standing over time as it sits on the site.
Your last point is very interesting. I think that the "popularity of the creator" factor is even more flakey with this system than taking an average of all user's opinions. What's to stop an admin from Highly Recommending an above-average game just because their friend made it? On the other hand, you know how controversial Adam is around here and yet Roly Poly Pumpkin is doing very well in popular opinion (despite still not being recommended by admins)
You're probably right about the slow/busy week thing more affecting GOTW.
But do you really think that Rikus, Shab or Muz would "highly recommend" a game just because their friend made it? I really don't think they would. Maybe that's the basis of our disagreement? You wouldn't trust the admins to make unbiased selection, and I would. Regardless of how much I agreed or disagreed, I would still trust that those selections were made in good faith and for good reason.
Originally Posted by -Adam- Perhaps if the Admins were actually good at making games they should have the rights to judge what's good and what's not?
Yeah, you know what? Let's start a campaign against everyone who's ever criticised something without first making a superior example of their subject of criticism. Film critics? Fuck you, irrelevant, you've never made a hollywood blockbuster! Everything should be community-rated! NO OUTSIDERS!
Film critics work for magazines, which are not the same as community sites. See page 1 of this thread, where this was already discussed.
Originally Posted by AndyUK What the hell? Saying one game doesn't deserve a 'highly recommended' when another does is just as much one persons opinion as the Admins choice is. Making your argument a bit... hypocritical.
My basis for saying that certain games don't deserve to be recommended was their rating and comments, NOT my own opinion. It was in response to Rikus' post about the ratings being perfectly in sync with user opinions.
I directed that at Lachie. I guess i should have said so. Sorry about the confusion.
Originally Posted by Shroomlock You're probably right about the slow/busy week thing more affecting GOTW.
But do you really think that Rikus, Shab or Muz would "highly recommend" a game just because their friend made it? I really don't think they would. Maybe that's the basis of our disagreement? You wouldn't trust the admins to make unbiased selection, and I would. Regardless of how much I agreed or disagreed, I would still trust that those selections were made in good faith and for good reason.
It's nothing to do with their friends making it, it's to do with personal preference. They may love a game that many people hate.
Originally Posted by Shroomlock You're probably right about the slow/busy week thing more affecting GOTW.
But do you really think that Rikus, Shab or Muz would "highly recommend" a game just because their friend made it? I really don't think they would. Maybe that's the basis of our disagreement? You wouldn't trust the admins to make unbiased selection, and I would. Regardless of how much I agreed or disagreed, I would still trust that those selections were made in good faith and for good reason.
Yes, I think that's the point at which we disagree I like all of the admins here, but I do think that humans are opinionated and flakey. The example of an admin recommending a game that their friend made was a bit extreme, but I do think that there are a lot of recommendation-worthy games that are being ignored, for whatever reason.
The problem of some games being ignored has existed for as long as admins have been able to mention new games on the front page. This is no less than an extension of that problem. Example: Space Barnacle. A great little game that went horribly unnoticed while other games in the same week got front page coverage.
Here are my problems with this system:
1) It's based on one person's opinion,
2) and yet games are recommended "by The Daily Click".
3) The Top Downloads list should give visitors a better indication of what most users (and therefore, "The Daily Click", no?) like.
4) The average ratings system was never so broken that this was needed.
5) "Recommended" and "Highly Recommended" have no clear definition.
6) It's only based on popular opinion to a certain degree.
7) I can think of a lot of very good games (in the opinion of the great majority of site members) that I know the admins will have played but are not recommended.
Does anyone here go to Rottentomatoes.com? If Roger Ebert says a movie is good, I trust his opinion because he's earned that trust. I know him (by his previous reviews) enough to know that I'll most likely enjoy a movie that he recommends. So even if some people disagree with him, the important thing is that the MAJORITY of people agree with him, because that means the majority of people will get value from his opinion.
I'd say that the admins choices so far have been good choices, and I'd say that the majority of people here would agree. So even if some people disagree with their choices, the majority of members will get value from their recommendations.
But like Muz said, the admins can't get around to playing everything, so some good games get overlooked. That hasn't hurt the popularity of "Roly Poly Pumpkin" or "A Mini Falafell Adventure", both games were hugely popular without any kind of star.
(EDIT: Nim, I hadn't read your last post when I wrote this, we were writing at the same time.)
I think perhaps games should just have a "Recommend button" instead of any stars what so ever. When the game reaches 10 or 20 recommends (w/e), it gets a star, and the top games are the ones that are recommended the most, like with the favs in the project section. This way the community have recommended the game, no one can be a cry baby over getting less than 5 stars, and people aren't forced into recommending games.
I totally agree with that idea. I've said before that the only way to really recommend a game now is to give it 5 stars. Anything less hurts a games rating and adds pressure on the person rating it.
However, I still think there is a place for the opinions of the admins, or at least in the form of an official review team of some sort.
I don't know who Roger Ebert is but I think I get the idea. You trust him because of previous experience reading his reviews. Even if you disagree with him, at least you'll know why because you know what his tastes are. If there were a TDC equivalent reviewer, that would be you, and I'd much rather you were dishing out the stars (if it must be one person's job) than admins I don't know because at least I know that you would back it up with a nicely written review.
However, the admin recommendations are somewhat random. Generally they follow public opinion for games that are recommended, but often games are not recommended and there's nowhere to find out why. Also, I'm still puzzled over what is HIGHLY Recommended and what is plain old vanilla Recommended.
Originally Posted by Shroomlock But like Muz said, the admins can't get around to playing everything, so some good games get overlooked. That hasn't hurt the popularity of "Roly Poly Pumpkin" or "A Mini Falafell Adventure", both games were hugely popular without any kind of star.
If games are doing just fine on their own, maybe we should question whether or not we need this additional admin recommendations system.
Sorry to keep quoting you, Shroomlock, but we were the only ones talking for a while. I'm enjoying the discussion
Originally Posted by Shroomlock HOLY CRAP ADAM!!!!!
I totally agree with that idea. I've said before that the only way to really recommend a game now is to give it 5 stars. Anything less hurts a games rating and adds pressure on the person rating it.
However, I still think there is a place for the opinions of the admins, or at least in the form of an official review team of some sort.
I like Adam's idea too, and agree with you about less than 5 stars being some kind of sensitive decision. A "Recommend" button would be nicer. The idea of admins backing up their decisions with reviews is a nice one but I think we know that it's never going to happen.
Originally Posted by Nim The idea of admins backing up their decisions with reviews is a nice one but I think we know that it's never going to happen.
Actually, that IS a good idea.
But guys, no more new voting systems, though, please. Wasn't it only a few weeks ago when someone suggested that only admins could decide which games were good, because of trolls voting down games. Now you guys don't like this voting system and want to go back to the old one which everyone hated? The recommend button has been done and what happens was that old games get a lot of votes and new games never ever reach the same level of votes as the old one.
What's unfair is the articles rating system, because people are voting 0 for some perfectly fine articles for no reason. But in the end, that system works too.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
"Now you guys don't like this voting system and want to go back to the old one which everyone hated?"
No one has suggested that.
"The recommend button has been done and what happens was that old games get a lot of votes and new games never ever reach the same level of votes as the old one."
Pff like backing it up with a review is going to make everyone happy.
You'll just get people bitching about how wrong the review is in their precious opinions instead of writing decent ones themselves.
Then eventually no one will want to review anything for fear of getting flamed.
I for one have no problem with the recommendations by the admins - if anyone only downloads games from this site just because there is a blue or red star next to it then they are only cheating themselves! I download 99% of games from this site and make my own mind up over what i like, then i either give a good 100+ word account of most of those games with a rating on the downloads page, else i'll write a full review.
I'm not surprised that many others do not do the same (since it is a little time consuming), yet at the same time i think i am more than fair with both the number of and the content of my contributions.
The Admins have as much right to give recommendations as anyone else though. If i could suggest one improvement it would be really nice if the admin issuing the blue/red star would reveal themselves, then people who tend to agree would get more out of their choice of recommendations. Maybe a few words as to why would be nice too but not essential.
As for admins submitting their own games on TDC - don't you think they have enough to do with moderating this site and updating it? And since their are plenty of other people contributing, does a few games less make that much difference. And to say that their opinions of quality in games is irrelevant just because of this fact is stupid; look at the amount of boxing trainers in this world who never made it as pros themselves. It's the same with most coaches in sports - the better ones usually had poor playing/competition careers themselves!
Originally Posted by Mark Radon I for one have no problem with the recommendations by the admins - if anyone only downloads games from this site just because there is a blue or red star next to it then they are only cheating themselves! I download 99% of games from this site and make my own mind up over what i like, then i either give a good 100+ word account of most of those games with a rating on the downloads page, else i'll write a full review.
I'm not surprised that many others do not do the same (since it is a little time consuming), yet at the same time i think i am more than fair with both the number of and the content of my contributions.
That's very nice of you, but I also think that you're well above average in terms of how active you are here and your contributions to the site. I probably only play about 20% of the games submitted here.
Originally Posted by Mark Radon The Admins have as much right to give recommendations as anyone else though.
Yes, I agree. Which means rating and commenting like anyone else.
Originally Posted by Mark Radon If i could suggest one improvement it would be really nice if the admin issuing the blue/red star would reveal themselves, then people who tend to agree would get more out of their choice of recommendations. Maybe a few words as to why would be nice too but not essential.
That's a good idea. If this ridiculous system has to stay, I'd welcome that change. Part of my problem with it is that the recommended games are recommended "by The Daily Click". I'd much rather the stars were removed and it said something like "One of Rikus' Favourite Games" or "Shab's Pick". At least then we'd know who's responsible for the decisions that we don't agree on.
Then they would complain that there are no features and request to put back a feature that has been complained about too often. It's always only just 2-5 people who complain about a feature anyway. Mostly because they're getting the wrong end of it.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
I think most people participate in these threads with good intentions. It's easy for "suggesting" to turn into "complaining", especially when people start debating and defending their ideas. No offense was intended.
Originally Posted by Shroomlock HOLY CRAP ADAM!!!!!
I totally agree with that idea. I've said before that the only way to really recommend a game now is to give it 5 stars. Anything less hurts a games rating and adds pressure on the person rating it.
However, I still think there is a place for the opinions of the admins, or at least in the form of an official review team of some sort.
Yeah, it's a good idea but the problem that happened when we went from thumbs to stars will happen again with a recommend button: Old games get screwed unless you go back and find them to recommend later (how I did for Lyle in Cube Sector for example).
--
"Del Duio has received 0 trophies. Click here to see them all."
"To be a true ninja you must first pick the most stealthy of our assorted combat suits. Might I suggest the bright neon orange?"
DXF Games, coming next: Hasslevania 2- This Space for Rent!
"Old games get screwed unless you go back and find them to recommend later"
Yes but that's like a forfeit that has to be taken. Like technology and medical cures are coming on leaps and bounds nowadays, there's not a lot that can be done about the past (even though in this case there is, it would just take a while if you're really that fussed )
A recommend button also eliminates negativity through ratings, which is what causes a lot of grudges and arguments, and debates like this one. If people want to be negative or post "constructive criticism", they can do so in comments, where they can be ignored or discussed rationally. Some people on this site are sensitive to low ratings, so if the only way people can rate their game down is by not rating it at all, it can't offend anyone. And if their game's good enough it will get a lot of recommendations anyway.
Originally Posted by Clubsoft Perhaps I should just strip out all the features so theres nothing left for people to argue about.
Hey Clubby. I wasn't implying that the site is crap or anything. We do appreciate your work here Most of the time the complaints are because the rest of the site is running so well.
Originally Posted by -Adam- A recommend button also eliminates negativity through ratings, which is what causes a lot of grudges and arguments, and debates like this one.
Sometimes arguments and debates are a healthy thing! We don't want a community where everyone thinks exactly the same way.
Originally Posted by -Adam- Some people on this site are sensitive to low ratings, so if the only way people can rate their game down is by not rating it at all, it can't offend anyone.
OH NOES I GOT OFFENDED ON TEH INTURNETZ!
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
Originally Posted by -Adam- A recommend button also eliminates negativity through ratings, which is what causes a lot of grudges and arguments, and debates like this one.
Sometimes arguments and debates are a healthy thing! We don't want a community where everyone thinks exactly the same way.
Yes. Exchanging opinions is one of the great things about being in a community. However, as AndyUK said, allowing admins to have the last word on what's "good enough to recommend" is a step in the opposite direction. That's what I'm aiming to change with this thread. Thanks for joining in!
I have a suggestion for a new recommendation system:
Each Download page would have a "Favo(u)rite" button. Similar to the Projects pages at the moment.
This would add the game to that user's Favourite Games list (up to a maximum of 5) This would also be a good way for users to recommend games to other members simply by listing them on their profile page.
If a new game is added to an already-full list, the user must replace an existing game.
This way, the Top Downloads would contain only the games that are in most members' Favourite Games list.
To counteract the inactive members' favourites still being counted, and therefore older games dominating the charts, this could be added to the algorithm that tallies up the total favourites for each game. For example, only count the member's favourites if they've been active within the past 3 weeks.
(sorry about alternating between the UK and US spelling of favourite..)
Anyway, what do you think. Clubby, is this possible?
I actually did start coding a favourites feature for games (it was a while ago, before the favourites system for projects was introduced). I never got around to finshing it though.
I would happily implement it myself though if you all want it. I'm not sure about changing the "Top downloads" to use this system though - it would take a lot for the site to check all of that information and would likely increase site load times and errors.
EDIT: Got bored so I've just added the favourites feature to downloads.. I'm still working on letting you delete games from your favourites list - that should be done soon.
Hmm.. just a thought. If you guys feel like any games deserve to be recommended, toss them here and I'll check them out. After my exams and after I stop being hooked on Forgotten Lands: First Colony
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
But see, if people suggest things to Muz, then it more accurately reflects the opinions of the members than the admins, assuming he waits for multiple requests to recommend a game.
Half of it is a debate that some good games aren't being recommended. Since where not going to strip a feature out just because < 5 people don't like it, a nice quick solution would be to toss a list of games that aren't being recommended so they might get recommended. Since some people say that a GOTW-runner up should be recommended, I'd like someone to spot those runner-ups for me. I get good games to play, you guys get games recommended, looks like a win-win solution to me
Anyway, looks like there might be a lot of spam if everyone posts all games at once. So, instead, just DC-mail me a list of any games you think should get a recommendation and I'll get back to you after I've looked at it Unless it's a platformer, I don't like platformers as much as the others, so maybe post those here instead.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Something we should do with the favorites-
Instead of giving the admins the right to favorite games, it should be the people (like the admins just made it so you can do) BUT, once the game has a favorite by like 25 people, then the blue star comes (the recommended one) and once it gets to like 50 stars it becomes highly recommended. So all the power would be in the people or TDC.
Your just jealous that you're not as awesome as me.
(And my megaman avatar )
The new Favourites feature works very well, in my opinion. Thanks Flava for adding it! If we could add a way of counting the favourites then we could have more accurate download charts.
Originally Posted by Muz Half of it is a debate that some good games aren't being recommended. Since where not going to strip a feature out just because < 5 people don't like it, a nice quick solution would be to toss a list of games that aren't being recommended so they might get recommended. Since some people say that a GOTW-runner up should be recommended, I'd like someone to spot those runner-ups for me. I get good games to play, you guys get games recommended, looks like a win-win solution to me
Anyway, looks like there might be a lot of spam if everyone posts all games at once. So, instead, just DC-mail me a list of any games you think should get a recommendation and I'll get back to you after I've looked at it Unless it's a platformer, I don't like platformers as much as the others, so maybe post those here instead.
To read this 6 pages into this thread is very disheartening. I'd encourage people not to send admins "recommendation-worthy" games for 2 reasons: 1) It further cements a flakey system, and 2) you can send a PM, but remember that the admins still have the final word on what is recommendation-worthy, not you. When your game sits at the top of the Downloads list for a week and receives nothing while the 60th place game gets HIGHLY recommended, you can't help but wonder what the hell is going on.
btw, Phizzy, you obviously have a problem with the current system too, and I know you can write seriously when you want to. It would be great if you could combine the two before posting here again.
Originally Posted by Rikus umm actually if you look he just re-signed up with a new account.
Sorry if this is rude but that's the second time you've posted in this thread just to encourage its digression. It would be nice to hear your thoughts on the rating system, Rikus
Power to the people = Current rating system. The 5 star ones that you could vote on and sort it on? It's still the most powerful rating system, followed by the reviews.
The little recommendation stars are just like medals or something. There's no point in giving out a medal if it takes a mob to do it Just nominate people who deserve it, if it really deserves it, then it will obviously get one. Like that Jeff Pwns II Game, a lot of people like it. It would get a blue star if you really let people vote on it. But do you really want that to be the first game newcomers download? (No offense, Bibin )
Edited by an Administrator.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Just so everyone knows, favourites for downloads have been reset to allow them to be counted and displayed on download pages, so readd any you might have favourited. Cheers.
Say um Clubsoft, was it intentional that theres (presumably) no limit to # of download favorites? I was testing to see if you just set it much higher than 5, but I ran out of patience.
Originally Posted by Pixelthief Say um Clubsoft, was it intentional that theres (presumably) no limit to # of download favorites? I was testing to see if you just set it much higher than 5, but I ran out of patience.
The limit was removed as we figured that people should be able to have as many favourite games as they like.
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You don't have to download what they recommend. 
But I do think there should be some kind of user-contributed award instead.
Shroomlock's starting to get rusty.
Edited by the Author.
Apocalyptic Coders - 
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