Well i got told off by eternal man for talking about stuff like this in game's comments pages and he told me to post here instead, so i will.
I don't want to start a big war and get kicked and banned. I just want to discuss, cos I, along with others, just really don't understand the people here.
Here is what i think
"Jeff Pwns is a recent example where real games are overshadowed by quickly made joke games. It discourages people to bother to make decent games as they will think 'well, whats the point of putting effort in if people are just gonna play games like THAT instead' "
Heres what Eternal man recently said in response to me dissing Jeff Pwns, amongst some other things, but that part isn't important.
"3. If a game developer gets discouraged to make a decent game because of people liking a game that was made in a short timespan they shouldn't be making games in the first place. A "serious" game, as you insist on calling it, WON'T go unnoticed if it's a good game. Stop whining about things which aren't real and let people decide for themselves if a game is good or not. And quality shouldn't be considered equal to level of shinyness anyway. "
That part in bold is simply not true, as you can see Jeff Pwns (just used as and example) is close to getting GOTW!'
Now lets pretend for a moment that Jeff Pwns was released by some random other guy, and instead of you being 'Jeff Vance' you were 'Samuel Gordon' (just some guy) and apart from that the game was the same... You jump about shooting blobs that fly towards you. Are you seriously suggesting that in those circumstances (where the game is essentially the same) that you would ALL still give it 4 or 5 stars and vote for it for GOTW? I mean, ACTUALLY compare it to the other 2 games in contention for GOTW this week (well not so much Sundown anymore, but nevertheless) ..ACTUALLY compare them and then tell me its still the best game there of the three.
And this DOES discourage people to put effort into real games. How can people possibly compete if they have to make a really really amazing game just to have a chance of beating a simple game made by a well known member. They won't they will naturally think 'well stuff that, im going to make a tonne of quick button mashers now as well!'.. which they DO!
You may see me as a 'hater' as some of you like to call people who dislike any game made by someone you like, but I'm trying to stick up for all those people who have put loads of effort into a game and have it ignored in favour of quickly made button mashers.
It sometimes seems as if different standards are applied to different games. like, the more detail you add in, the more things there are for people to criticise. Like 'oh the 3d blocks are all the same shape!' or 'the shadows are always the same angle!'... whereas if you just didn't bother having 3d or shadows.. no one would complain! and you'd get 5 stars!.. assuming you were known in the community.
Simple Games = Rated on what they include (Not much, but it may be polished so 5 stars!)
Complex Games = Compared to 'real' games, rated down for what they're not (Oh Why can't you get TANKS in this massive battlefield game?! 3 stars)
I understand that people will go 'yeah I don't care about how long it takes to make, I only care about how fun it is!' ...from my point of view this backfires on them, as they seem to consider 5 second button mashers to be more fun. Sure, they MIGHT be for the first 30 seconds... but they grow old and get dull, whilst the complex games shine after about half an hours play. Most people don't give games that much of a chance. They might just rate a game on, say, its first level. It's unfair in my opinion and it annoys me when people who do take the effort to make something stand out get pummelled for not making it completely perfect in every way.
Don't aim for perfection- you'll miss the deadline
'~Tom~ says (16:41):
well why does the custom controls for the keyboard palyer even affect the menu controls at all whats thep oint jsutm ake it so for the keyboard palyer on the menu screens everything is always up down left right enter regardless of the controls they set'
I've already commented about this. It doesn't matter how long a game has been worked on, or how well made it is. It's what the community members find the most enjoyable.
I understand that people will go 'yeah I don't care about how long it takes to make, I only care about how fun it is!' ...from my point of view this backfires on them, as they seem to consider 5 second button mashers to be more fun. Sure, they MIGHT be for the first 30 seconds... but they grow old and get dull, whilst the complex games shine after about half an hours play. Most people don't give games that much of a chance. They might just rate a game on, say, its first level. It's unfair in my opinion and it annoys me when people who do take the effort to make something stand out get pummelled for not making it completely perfect in every way.
Don't aim for perfection- you'll miss the deadline
'~Tom~ says (16:41):
well why does the custom controls for the keyboard palyer even affect the menu controls at all whats thep oint jsutm ake it so for the keyboard palyer on the menu screens everything is always up down left right enter regardless of the controls they set'
If i were u tom, i wouldn't take this site comments and ratings seriously.
It's obvius Jeff pwns is not a seroius game, and wouldn't stand a chance anywhere except on this site.
The games in which a lot of effort is shown and they are good, shouldn't be on this site anyway.
You can take an example of Forgotten lands and jeff pwns in the gotw poll.
This site is more of a place for learning how to make games. and getting help and support.
Alternativly also a place for small interesting games. And the scores and ratings reflect that.
This is also very dependant on people having different game-making experience. It's like grades in a school.
Someone in year 12 writes a complicated essay on physics and receives an F.. Someone in year 1 solves "64+23" and gets a sticker.
I know thats a bit extreme comparing with people in this community but if someone is well known, it is most likely that they will be judged by the standard of their previous works. This can have a very minor effect on the outcome of the responses, but look at it like this: Pixelthief submits a very ordinary space invaders game with very basic movement, something that wouldn't take very long to make at all and has nothing special about it. Many people would rate low on this, and not give it much thought at all. But say, a person that has not much gaming experience and has produced nothing but pure shite to the site, but is well known and loved through-out the community submits this space invaders clone. This would get a much more positive response I beleive. Exactly the same game, but the community is partly judging the game on who made it, not what it is like.
As I said earlier, this causes only a minor effect but it can be the difference between a 4 or 5 star rating.
Originally Posted by Don Luciano If i were u tom, i wouldn't take this site comments and ratings seriously.
It's obvius Jeff pwns is not a seroius game, and wouldn't stand a chance anywhere except on this site.
The games in which a lot of effort is shown and they are good, shouldn't be on this site anyway.
You can take an example of Forgotten lands and jeff pwns in the gotw poll.
This site is more of a place for learning how to make games. and getting help and support.
Alternativly also a place for small interesting games. And the scores and ratings reflect that.
Have you ever been on TIGsource? They love silly games like that.
If you look at comercial gaming this happens all the time. Companies like Koei, Treasure and Rare are perfect examples. They create intuitive, massive and complex games that people quickly pass on and pick up the closest FIFA or FPS that pour onto the shelves every 20 seconds.
Making a game is a labour of love. I have never released a game in the 5 years ive been clicking, but that hasnt stoped me from making and completing games of which only myself and my fiends and family have played. For example i spent an entire 6 months creating an indepth crime Managment game based around a world my brother was trying to design in a comic. There was no glory or gratitude from a communtiy like this as i never released it but i was happy with it and my brother and his friends still play it and have been playing it for over a year now.
Without sounding harsh or rude to anyone here, but why should you care what people on this sit think if you are pleased with what you have made?
Also why are people only pointing this out now? "Bad" games VS "good" games has always happened in GOTW on TDC. And it can't be helped, everyone has different talents, skills and opinions on what's a bad game or what isn't. Do you think it's the admin's right to sit there and decide what games "deserve" to go in the GOTW? To me this really isn't a problem, GOTW has always been like this.
Different things account for different ratings for different games. You can't put it all into one formula set for each game. Let people decide their rating and leave it alone.
"A "serious" game, as you insist on calling it, WON'T go unnoticed if it's a good game."
"That part in bold is simply not true, as you can see Jeff Pwns (just used as and example) is close to getting GOTW!"
Isn't that quite selfcontradictory? How can you insist on saying that Forgotten Lands is not getting it's fair amount of attention? It currently holds 1:st place with 4,75 in the downloads rating list and it's leading the GOTW-poll. And if you still feel it doesn't get enough attention then stop bashing JP everywhere and start telling people about Forgotten Lands instead.
"Now lets pretend for a moment that Jeff Pwns was released by some random other guy, and instead of you being 'Jeff Vance' you were 'Samuel Gordon' (just some guy) and apart from that the game was the same... You jump about shooting blobs that fly towards you. Are you seriously suggesting that in those circumstances (where the game is essentially the same) that you would ALL still give it 4 or 5 stars and vote for it for GOTW?"
If a developer has a history of making fun games then people will want to see what the person has come up with now. That's very logical. If a random person releases a game like JP then people might not look at it at first, simply because they don't expect it to be anything more then a bad joke. But if it's a fun game too then it will get it's attention, but probably later.
And now to the immensily weak argument of the contents.
I will quote it once again just to clarify what I'm talking about;
"and instead of you being 'Jeff Vance' you were 'Samuel Gordon' (just some guy) and apart from that the game was the same... You jump about shooting blobs that fly towards you. Are you seriously suggesting that in those circumstances (where the game is essentially the same) that you would ALL still give it 4 or 5 stars and vote for it for GOTW?"
Let's take Super Metroid as an example, most people can agree that it's a very good game. Remove Samus Aran from SM3 (maybe insert Samuel Gordon?) and change the setting to "generic candy planet". Would it still be the same good game?
NO.
Because the story/background of a game is a very big part of a game. And in this instant (Jeff PWNS) the "background" really lifted the game because it added a humorous touch to an excellent arcade engine.
"And this DOES discourage people to put effort into real games. How can people possibly compete if they have to make a really really amazing game just to have a chance of beating a simple game made by a well known member. They won't they will naturally think 'well stuff that, im going to make a tonne of quick button mashers now as well!'.. which they DO!"
A project simply made for popularity won't see the day of light anywhere. It's weak to say that it discourages "serious" developers from putting effort into their games, cause if that is the case, then they weren't serious with their project to begin with.
"It sometimes seems as if different standards are applied to different games. like, the more detail you add in, the more things there are for people to criticise. Like 'oh the 3d blocks are all the same shape!' or 'the shadows are always the same angle!'... whereas if you just didn't bother having 3d or shadows.. no one would complain! and you'd get 5 stars!.. assuming you were known in the community."
I really dislike how you try and insist on TDC being elitistic and ignoring newcomers in favour for "people we like". Because that's simply not true.
"if someone is well known, it is most likely that they will be judged by the standard of their previous works."
then explain why Bibin gets high marks for Jeff Pwns, (i know he is way better than that).. and explain why James Luke gets 2 stars and 1 stars for games AT LEAST as good as Jeff Pwns and hes just a newcomer!.
And with regards to Forgotten Lands. I'm not complaining about it not getting attention (i mean i havent even played it) Yeah it IS getting attention, but Jeff Pwns gets just as much attention, if not a bit more. You see here, you must make a game like Forgotten Lands to be on par with Jeff Pwns type games
"If a developer has a history of making fun games then people will want to see what the person has come up with now. That's very logical." - yes that is very logical but its not very logical to give him high ratings and GOTW regardless of whether that game particularly is good or not. I understand these poeple are obviously going to get more downloads because you know who they are, but then to give them good ratings no matter what they do whilst properly criticisng newcomers like James Luke, is just not nice.
"I really dislike how you try and insist on TDC being elitistic and ignoring newcomers in favour for "people we like". Because that's simply not true. "
as i said, go compare Jeff Pwns to games made by James Luke (i only take his games as an example cos i know him and hes a newcomer here).
And you'll see you obviously don't rate based on what you'd expect from that person because if that were true James' games should get higher ratings and Jeff Pwns would get lower because he ought to be able to do better. Does giving Jeff Pwns 5/5 not imply that you think that that was the best Bibin could possibly have done?
Originally Posted by Mr_Tom "if someone is well known, it is most likely that they will be judged by the standard of their previous works."
then explain why Bibin gets high marks for Jeff Pwns, (i know he is way better than that).. and explain why James Luke gets 2 stars and 1 stars for games AT LEAST as good as Jeff Pwns and hes just a newcomer!.
People rate individually, it's impossible to try and list and control all aspects that play in when a person decides to rate a game. If a person rate game A 5 stars and game B 2 stars, then you know what? The person didn't enjoy game B as much as he did game A at the time. And since no one here is a reviewer paid to be 100% objective and rate games based on a universal formula then that's just the way it'll be. How good a game is rests in the eye of the beholder.
"If a developer has a history of making fun games then people will want to see what the person has come up with now. That's very logical." - yes that is very logical but its not very logical to give him high ratings and GOTW regardless of whether that game particularly is good or not. I understand these poeple are obviously going to get more downloads because you know who they are, but then to give them good ratings no matter what they do whilst properly criticisng newcomers like James Luke, is just not nice.
What is it you don't understand about people having a personal preference on what is a good game and what is not. People aren't giving JP high ratings because it was made by Bibin, they do because so because they enjoyed it, A LOT. If you had a game in the gotw poll I could understand why you time and again bash JP, it could easily be explained by your being jelaous of JP. But now that isn't even the case! Why can't you just accept that some people found JP more entertaining than Zombie PWNER for example? You just make yourself out like a whining spoiled kid who dies a little each time someone disagrees with your taste in games. And that is just absurd. If you feel a game has recieved an unfair rating that doesn't reflect the personal opinion of the person who rated it, then you're very welcome to press the alert admin button and have the admins take a look at it.
I completely totally and utterly agree with your first post Mr_Tom. Thank goodness someone else thinks the way I do.
This is part of the reason why I don't like the current ratings system. I don't really know what it's suppsed to represent but people don't use it to rate the entire game, they use it as a 'first impression' rating most of the time.
I'm my opinion you should consider all aspects of a game when rating it.
I'm sorry, but I don't care how long you worked on a game or how professional it looks. I rate games and vote based on how fun the game is. It's the same with professional games, I'd rather play emulated super mario brothers then some of the big budget games released today.
Everyone has different standards. Some vote for things because they're more "fun" than others. Others vote because they're impressed with the dedication and skill the author has shown. Neither is right because it's all subjective. Yes it sucks that a 3 year epic someone has lovingly crafted can get overshadowed by a game someone whipped up in a week. This is life and it happens. I tend to find that the lovingly crafted games have much longer legs than the "quick-fix" games which tend to be forgotten rather quickly.
Both games have their place in this community. Neither is killing the community. That is all.
Originally Posted by 3kliksphilip I understand that people will go 'yeah I don't care about how long it takes to make, I only care about how fun it is!' ...from my point of view this backfires on them, as they seem to consider 5 second button mashers to be more fun. Sure, they MIGHT be for the first 30 seconds... but they grow old and get dull, whilst the complex games shine after about half an hours play. Most people don't give games that much of a chance. They might just rate a game on, say, its first level. It's unfair in my opinion and it annoys me when people who do take the effort to make something stand out get pummelled for not making it completely perfect in every way.
Completely agree with you too 3Klicksphillip! I love you guys
You know, i would expect a community of game creators to actually appreciate much more than playing games.
I am 100% sure that a game that is really fun to play but looks like a piece of crap would get rated down because it looks bad. All this talk of fun is the only important aspect is rubbish.
"I am 100% sure that a game that is really fun to play but looks like a piece of crap would get rated down because it looks bad. All this talk of fun is the only important aspect is rubbish."
AndyUK etc why are you failing to see both sides of the argument? It's not really that hard to understand, is it? A game can be well made and still have very little appeal to some people. Everyone here has different skills, talents and personal preferences, so you're not going to get consistent ratings.
Basing your review on fun is nothing more than a watered down opinion with little actual thought put behind it and very little help to the people making games.
I do understand that a game can be bad and fun too, I'm not saying otherwise.
What I am saying is that a game with better graphics has better graphics than a game with worse graphics. A game with lots of glitches has more glitches than a game with 0 glitches, Understand?
So what do we do when playing something like that? Ignore all of that because it's fun to play? Or tell the creator they should cut out the glitches and try to make better graphics?
I know which one i would do.
If you guys don't let it go and stop talking about it I will consider preventing further downloads of Jeff Pwns II, and indefinitely hold off HatMan 2. Stop.
Originally Posted by Bibin If you guys don't let it go and stop talking about it I will consider preventing further downloads of Jeff Pwns II, and indefinitely hold off HatMan 2. Stop.
So you're not allowing the community to debate about your games?
I just don't get it. Why not let people enjoy what they think is enjoyable and stop trying to force-feed them with your personal views on how they should think when rating something.
When people put down a good game for no reason at all I very much agree that it is eligable for this kind of discussion. But when the so called problem consists of people enjoying a game even though it doesn't have the best gfx that week is hardly a suitable cause for a crusade.
Can't we just drop this and let people enjoy what they enjoy?
"If you had a game in the gotw poll I could understand why you time and again bash JP, it could easily be explained by your being jelaous of JP. But now that isn't even the case!"
sorry for being a little altruistic, I'll try and only think about myself in the future if you like.
"Why can't you just accept that some people found JP more entertaining than Zombie PWNER for example? You just make yourself out like a whining spoiled kid who dies a little each time someone disagrees with your taste in games."
Ok lets assume for a moment that people did just like JP a lot... WHY!? Is it cos its got Jeff Vance in it and hes shooting construct? It seems to me that thats the only reason. And if I was a whining kid i would only be doing this if If it was in my own self interest, which it isn't since I've never released a game here (technically I have, but not as far as you know)
Nad to people who say they rate based on how fun it is: If for example there was an RTS game released that was a very good one but you don't really enjoy RTS's, would you play it and rate it low cos it wasn't fun for you or would you think 'well I don't enjoy it personally but i could tell it was a good RTS game'... cos thats how i vote, on how good i think it is regardless of my personal tastes in games.. I generally don't like platform games but I can tell whats a good one and what isn't.. and i know, as all of you do (i'm sure you do really.. come on now) that JP is one of those platform games that really isn't that great.. in fact its not great at all. The most it could possibly be is 'fun for a few minutes' and that does not warrant 5 stars and vote for GOTW above other proper games.
Nad to people who say they rate based on how fun it is: If for example there was an RTS game released that was a very good one but you don't really enjoy RTS's, would you play it and rate it low cos it wasn't fun for you or would you think 'well I don't enjoy it personally but i could tell it was a good RTS game'... cos thats how i vote, on how good i think it is regardless of my personal tastes in games.. I generally don't like platform games but I can tell whats a good one and what isn't.. and i know, as all of you do (i'm sure you do really.. come on now) that JP is one of those platform games that really isn't that great.. in fact its not great at all. The most it could possibly be is 'fun for a few minutes' and that does not warrant 5 stars and vote for GOTW above other proper games.
What about people's preference in graphics styles, gameplay mechanics, and control sensitivity? :| You're being very rude in calling the game "improper". Whether it is or not. This whole debate is rather pointless and nobody is listening to anyone else. Why can't we just drop it? Who really gives a load of poop what a game gets rated as compared to another? Just worry about being fair yourself, and let other people worry about themselves.
Originally Posted by Bibin If you guys don't let it go and stop talking about it I will consider preventing further downloads of Jeff Pwns II, and indefinitely hold off HatMan 2. Stop.
Don't like people flaming over your games? http://www.gamebuilder.info/ Gamebuilder is a fresh community site that promises to keep the game making community a friendly one.
Originally Posted by Mr_Tom "If you had a game in the gotw poll I could understand why you time and again bash JP, it could easily be explained by your being jelaous of JP. But now that isn't even the case!"
sorry for being a little altruistic, I'll try and only think about myself in the future if you like.
Oh come on, you know as well as I that I meant why create a problem when those involved doesn't even think that it's a problem.
"Why can't you just accept that some people found JP more entertaining than Zombie PWNER for example? You just make yourself out like a whining spoiled kid who dies a little each time someone disagrees with your taste in games."
Ok lets assume for a moment that people did just like JP a lot... WHY!? Is it cos its got Jeff Vance in it and hes shooting construct? It seems to me that thats the only reason. And if I was a whining kid i would only be doing this if If it was in my own self interest, which it isn't since I've never released a game here (technically I have, but not as far as you know)
Sigh. You still only point out the fact that you do not think it's ok for people to like a game cause you don't think it's good. As Shab mentioned earlier views upon what is fun and not is subjective, and therefore it doesn't really matter if you disagree with those who like JP or not. They do, and that's all that matters really.
Nad to people who say they rate based on how fun it is: If for example there was an RTS game released that was a very good one but you don't really enjoy RTS's, would you play it and rate it low cos it wasn't fun for you or would you think 'well I don't enjoy it personally but i could tell it was a good RTS game'... cos thats how i vote, on how good i think it is regardless of my personal tastes in games.. I generally don't like platform games but I can tell whats a good one and what isn't.. and i know, as all of you do (i'm sure you do really.. come on now) that JP is one of those platform games that really isn't that great.. in fact its not great at all. The most it could possibly be is 'fun for a few minutes' and that does not warrant 5 stars and vote for GOTW above other proper games.
Can you just for one second stop bashing JP in every post you make? It's really rude of you! People are allowed to vote whatever they want for whatever reason as long as it reflects their personal opinion on the matter. Your discrimination of what constitutes a "proper" game and not is just plain offensive. Every game that someone makes and wants to share with the community because they are proud of their creation IS A PROPER GAME, and shouldn't have to stand up to your kind of bashing of it and downgrading it's quality. I can't get why you do that.
Being off-topic is certainly not the only grounds for locking a thread.
This "discussion" just gets people in an uproar, and shows the attitudes of a lot of people quite well... (Including my own. ) It's certainly not beneficial in any regard.
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Edited by the Author.
Who really gives a load of poop what a game gets rated as compared to another? Just worry about being fair yourself, and let other people worry about themselves.