I've never really understood Open Source klik games or why there's any demand for them. Personally, everything I've learned has been through trial and error, and I'd much rather figure problems out by myself than use someone else's code as a foundation. Someone mentioned in another thread that maybe if we had some more open source games around here then the quality of games here in general would improve. The thing I'd worry about most about releasing a full open source game (not an engine or tutorial example) is that someone would just lift it wholesale and release it as their own (possibly for commercial purposes).
It would be great if Clickteam would add a feature to partially-protect games, so that they can be opened and looked at but not altered, exported or saved.
I release all my games as open source because I like to look at other peoples sources. I don't copy people code but usually just like to see their ideas and how they went about things. For instance i figured out how to make level editors by looking at one of bibins games, I didn't use any of his code, just gave myself a general idea of how it works.
As far as people stealing my game is concerned, I'm not at the level where I'd really have to worry about that
Originally Posted by nim I'd much rather figure problems out by myself than use someone else's code as a foundation.
This is how I feel. I will ask questions sometimes but I don't like using other people's code because I like to know what it is I did and how, in case I need to do it again or something similar, or someone else asks, and sometimes I feel like I'm stealing if I take the code.
I'm a snobbish hoarder who wants to keep all his secrets to himself.
Like my "secrets" are worth stealing.
I sometimes have patience to look through others' code to try to find bugs, but I seldom bother if I want to learn something. Usually because it's so technical that I don't want to bother trying to wrap my brain around it.
getting your game established publicly well before it's released could help prevent some amount of stealing, since people will know from the start who created the game. thieves will probably succeed in smaller pockets in the internet, even if they had no access to the source code anyway
open-source games/engines wouldn't necessarily help others create better games; open-source games are just as likely to be as terrible as closed-source ones. not that they would hurt or are a bad idea... just don't expect too much out of the idea
"It would be great if Clickteam would add a feature to partially-protect games, so that they can be opened and looked at but not altered, exported or saved."
this would only make ripping off a game slightly harder than if it were the straight mfa
I guess that for newer klikkers, OS games can show how to go about coding more advanced stuff. And if they want to rip code out of games then let them, they'll have a hell of a time trying to make a game cobbled together from four or five different programmer's code work together properly.
Can't you password protect event groups? I guess that's one way of partially protecting games, like nim suggested.
There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't.
Originally Posted by Rob Westbrook Can't you password protect event groups? I guess that's one way of partially protecting games, like nim suggested.
someone sufficiently motivated can still unlock them
in fact it's quite easy to get the group passwords out of the mfa file because they're stored in there (not as-is but with a weak cipher from the looks of it); worse is that data for the events in the group doesn't look encrypted
yes this is beyond the knowledge of most people but it doesn't stop some random person from making an exe that spits out all the group passwords for the mfa's you give it
I download just about every open source Click game and engine I can get my hands on. I'm not a very good "coder" so I'm always interested in seeing how people get stuff to work. Whether its a platform engine, a level editor, or a complete game - I download all of the open source entries. I'm not out to steal anyone's stuff - I just want to learn.
I understand when someone says they put a lot of "hard work" into a game and don't want anyone stealing it. That's cool. But, I think this community thrives because people do share and are willing to help others. Believe me when I say I am putting A LOT of "hard work" into making Captain Plokey with Assault Andy. He's doing the coding but I spend a lot of time drawing sprites, tweaking animations, creating level designs, writing a backstory, etc. It's not the same thing as coding but it is no less work. I've spent my all of my spare time this past week working on a single sprite animation (the last two nights alone on the legs of a sprite - trying to solve a walking sequence issue). Even with all that work, I would still like to release the game as open source.
I would never steal someone's game and I can't think of many that would. But, I'm sure they are out there. If you'd like to "share" your code or game with the community but are concerned someone will just turn around and sell it - consider a Creative Commons license - with a "some rights reserved" copyright:
I can see what Jess is saying. I've always thought of this community as being pretty open about ideas and the programming that drives them. I mean there are enough platform movement examples and articles out there to get even the most novice klikker going with a little sprite that jumps and runs around a level. Having said that, big projects have a reason to be open source. No-one would expect a team who've been working on a huge, possible commercial viable project to just open their program up to all and sundry because, let's face it, people would take advantage of it. This is the Internet after all. There's nothing wrong with open source material because it gives everyone a chance to make that big project pretty much everyone here dreams of achieving. Open source does not make a good game. It takes time and effort, and ultimately the knowledge that comes from both open source examples and trial and error to make something truly worth enjoying.
There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary and those who don't.
You actually learn a lot from open source. It's the difference between say... learning math from a book and learning it from a teacher. It's easy to figure out basic stuff, but after a certain level, you learn much, much faster from someone else. Assuming they're good enough.
Don't open source your best game, duh Just leave the outdated ones open. You're bound to find better, cleaner ways of doing things. Instead of leaving an old game to rot, just put it out open source for everyone.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
I've come to understand that "open source" is very touchy subject for many independent/hobbyist game developers. I've engaged in a number of discussions about the subject and know a lot of the arguments for and against it. Whether you choose to release your code as "open source" or not, I think your decision should be respected. The only issue I've ever had with people over the topic of "open source" is when people actively discourage others from releasing games or engines as open source.
I am a big fan of the platform genre. Altough I primarily play the "Run and Gun" sub-genre, I also enjoy the "Hop and Bop" games - of which the Mario series is king. At one point, I was interested in making a Mario fan game and began visiting the Mario Fan Game Galaxy (mfgg.net) site. The site has a mix of Click and GameMaker entheusiats who like to create Mario games. It's a great site and I think performs a nice service for those interested in making Mario fan games. I know that some on this website are frequent visitors to MFGG.
The problem I had with MFGG was in their forums. A GameMaker coder named 'Hello' created a fairly encompassing engine of Mario sprites, actions and events. I hardly use GameMaker at all (preferring Click products) but I've downloaded the engine and taken a look at it (you know me, I'm a sucker for open source). It's a great engine and Hello has been able to recreate a lot of the Mario series' features in this engine. In December, Hello released version 4 of this open source engine.
You would think that Hello would be thanked and praised for his efforts. Unfortunately, he is routinely bashed in the MFGG forums for essentially inhibiting variety in Mario fan games (an idea which I find a little curious to begin with). Forum members regularly post to his threads to say things like "Just watch as hundreds of uninspired fan games are uploaded in one month." Some of the arguments I've heard against him include:
1. Don't release your engine as open source - all Mario fan games will play exactly the same
2. Don't release your engine with actual Mario graphics - lazy people will just use it as a level editor (without creating their own graphics)
At MFGG, I read a number of forum members (even MFGG administrators) post that people shouldn't post their open source engines - the reason being that people should just "figure it out" for themselves. Because, "that's the way I did it" or "it's more satisfying in the end". Whatever the reason, I've read a lot of negative comments towards "open source" on that site.
At one point, I even got into a long and heated discussion over the topic with one of the MFGG administrators and a number of the regular forum members. I am told the thread has been "archived" but I haven't been able to find it in the archive (otherwise, I would provide a link to it). In the thread, I tried to defend Hello as I thought he did the Mario fan game community more good than harm. Some of the arguments I made for his open source engine were:
1. Game Mechanics Learning. Open source is good because inexperienced game creators can learn from the code (what Muz said above). With better understanding of game mechanics, the games they create will only be better.
2. Understanding of Integration. Providing an entire game engine helps people understand how various mechanics should work together. Tutorials that demonstrate a specific game feature are very useful, but sometimes it really helps to see multiple game features combined - to understand how they integrate. It's not always possible to combine tutorials as they may coded in entirely different ways (perhaps because their game mechanics are so different).
3. Sandbox. Some visitors to MFGG may only want a "sandbox" in which to easily create Mario games. They may not have the time, experience, or inclination to work on a Mario game from scratch using only the development tool and a couple of random tutorials. Perhaps all they want is to build a couple of levels and that is where they derive their enjoyment. I find nothing wrong with that. "But we get crap on the mainsite!" some of the forum members told me, "People post nothing more than levels. These aren't true 'games'. They are uninspired."
"So what?" I replied. Add a checkbox to game submissions so that you can filter out the Hello engine games. Plus, if Hello wants to post his engine and people want to use it as a "sandbox" - then isn't he addressing a need? Why deny those people who want the sandboxes?
And, I think there really IS a need for open source. Unless you are planning on selling your game (in which case I would not advocate open source), I think open source only benefits our community. Let me offer my viewpoint on some of the "open source" concerns as I understand them:
1. Someone will take my game and sell it "as is" - thereby profiting from my hard work. If that's the worry, then I think you could include the proper open source copyright. If you're not planning on selling the game yourself - then the proper copyright should prevent others from doing the same. This is currently under discussion in this thread: http://www.create-games.com/forum_post.asp?id=267912
2. Someone will take my code, make a couple of modifications, put in their own graphics and call it their game. So what? What are they going to gain and what are you going to lose? Your game will be no less "cool" by having derivatives. Honestly, aren't most of our games derivatives? I'm working on a platform shooter. Is that original? All of the game mechanics have been done before - more than a thousand times I'm sure.
3. I found out a really cool way to do "X". My game will be brilliant because no one else does it like this. Seriously? If you found out a really cool way to do something (and don't plan on selling your game) then why not share it? I can name a number of people who have recently posted open source tutorials with clever code they've developed. I consider these "gifs" and think they take nothing away from the coder! Zephni has posted some of the best level editors on this site - with cool handling of arrays. Does this diminish Zephni's projects? Not at all. If anything, it makes me, as a member of this site, more inclined to help him in any way that I can... since he's already shared with me. Same with Nim... he developed a very cool and concise way to do scrolling... and shared it with me. I'm now in your debt and if you guys need anything that I can help with... I'm there.
4. People should learn for themselves. That's the way I did it. There is a reason I'm using Click products - because they make the process of game creation easy. If access to open source tutorials and engines makes that process even easier - why not make it available? Some people may not have time to create a pixel-perfect platform engine - but would certainly like to draw the graphics for one if they could get their hands on one. Heck that is the main reason I posted a platform engine. I found a number of examples of platform engines that did "some" things that I liked but not all of them. So, I used the examples and created my own platform engine with my very own slope logic (which took me awhile and I'm very proud of). After it was finished, I released it. Why? Because we all stand on the shoulders of giants. I could not have created the engine without the samples and examples of others. If my engine helps out the next guy - then that's a win for the community.
In short, it's the sharing that I see on this site that keeps me coming back. Honestly, if all I wanted to do was download Indy games, then there are better sites for that. But, I like to work with Click products and see what others are doing with Click products. When someone does something cool with a Click product, it only benefits all of us if they decide to share it as open source.
Anyway, I think I'm beginning to rant so I'll stop here. Feel free to agree or disagree. I assure you my feelings won't be hurt.
The best part of the "people should learn for themselves" argument is that these people are using pre-built game engines themselves! If they really believed what they professed, they wouldn't be using WYSIWYG editors, or even a high-level coding language for that matter, and would go learn C++ or something.
I know some C++. I still use MMF because it's the one I code fastest in. But I still learn from open source, just like I do with C++.
Design is the core of every good game. I'm surprised so many klikers (and game makerers) neglect game design. When you have a "Mario game", it's pretty obvious that no effort is being put in design at all, and everyone's trying to make the same thing.
Well, let's assume everyone has the same goal (Mario game). The difference is in how you get there!
Playing games is fun because there's a sense of accomplishment after only a short period of time. Making games is fun for the exact same reason, you accomplish something tough in just a few days. The lest people who accomplish it, the more fun it is. It's the same for any hobby. Take collecting stamps or fishing.. all these are fun when you're the only one who can do it.
When you make any engine, Mario or not, you have that rush of accomplishment. You've done something others can't, and now you have bragging rights for all that hard work. Level design isn't so much an accomplishment as an engine.
So, by releasing a (great) Mario engine, you're spitting on the accomplishment of everyone else who made a Mario engine. It's as if everyone spent a few months building your own boat and fishing rod to catch 1000 kg of fish, then you come in and give everyone a big boat and fishing net and they need only 2 weeks to do it. As a hobby, it's just plain unfair. It's good for the industry as a whole, but individually, it hurts. And hey, once everyone is on the same level, they could do it for something bigger, like make a Mario MMO or go fishing deep in the ocean. But when you spend months trying to do something and someone worse than you does it better, that is not fun.
That's why so many people oppose it. People don't really consider the fact that they could use it to accomplish bigger things.. like making better engines. It's more that you're challenging what they've already done. Game design isn't for everyone, because, honestly, it's hard. Game making is where the quick fun and competing is, and open source hurts that. I know people who refuse to use extensions for the same reason.
I still support open sourcing, though, because it levels the playing field for newcomers though, and lets everyone aim higher.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
look at all the 20 line comp entries. theres a large variety of genres and all open source. in the first comp there were around 20 entries. add to that this new comps entries, which the standards of some of them have risen dramatically.
open source is very helpful, i remember i had KNP and it had that hopeless video tutorial on it... where you used the step-through-editor to make an entire game. i actually thought that was the only way to use it until i got an internet connection and started looking at peoples games, then i found out about alterable values and what not.. haha i was so smart. but where i really learned how to use MMF was on clickteams open source forum, there have been some geniuses posting on there over the years, if you've been ignoring them because you want to do everything the hard way, then you're missing out.
it will be fun to look at how everyone uses their 20 events, we might find some super efficient ways of doing things.
well, open sourcing things are good, if its something technical you've made and want to share, or something old you dont care about.
if youre going to release something as open source, you know that someone, someday, will steal part of your code, or the entire thing. so, in my eyes, it should be like writin a book. dudes will read and use it, at their own risk.
so u can even throw in some bugs to punish if someone copypaste ur code
Eh, something a programmer taught me - even if you don't want people to get it, don't add bugs on purpose or comment things badly. It makes you, as a programmer look bad.
Do what I did in uni. Add useless code, e.g.:
If X > 0, turn on flag 2.
If flag 2 is on, turn off flag 2.
Put them far enough from each other that nobody can figure what flag 2 does. People actually copy paste that stuff, and my lecturer found out that nearly half the class copied my code.
Or, if you're feeling naughty, add an off switch.
If Ctrl is pressed AND ] is pressed, turn on flag 3.
Then find a distant part of your code, and add something like
Blabla conditions
If flag 3 is on
Blabla more conditions
Then exit application.
So, you know that when you press Ctrl+] and the game crashes later, it's been mindlessly copied.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Pssh, I just take them out when I'm using them. That's what the Never condition is for
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
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Edited by Ricky
