I personally don't agree with you. Yes, people don't own any one colour but people do spend time and effort into optimising said palette and disregarding that work is just wrong.
I think people should be far more concerned about their artwork instead of the palette used to make it. I don't think the discussion here though is whether or not someone owns that color or that section of the color wheel, I think it's a matter of someone claiming ownership of a combination of highly specific colors. A single color is not a palette, nor is a gradation of a single hue a palette.
With that said, I'm going to have to say that I half-heartedly disagree with someone claiming ownership of a specific palette but I'm not entirely sure why. I think it just puts a bad taste in my mouth for someone to say "Give me credit - " for picking out these pre-existing colors and proving that they look nice together.
I'd be interested in seeing how this takes off here though, since most of us aren't pixel artists the outcome might be a little less bias.
Making a proper palette takes ages, it took me 5 years to come up with one that is perfect for me. Just picking some pretty colours from other people is ok. Taking some dudes' personal palette is not, not without giving credit. It's the same as using an engine made by someone else and not giving credit.
Personally, I don't think it should be possible to legally protect a palette (and certainly not a single color), but I do think you are morally obliged to give credit.
if you can own a palette then somebody "owns" the palette of 4 colors: 255,0,0 0,255,0 0,0,255 and 0,0,0 that i see pixel art made with every once in a while without credit
related to that, if you "own" a palette you technically "own" any subset of those colors which may well be individual colors
i don't get the point of it
ip is such a shitty thing nowadays that you can't make anything without having to potentially credit somebody you don't even know for each little part of it. i actually kind of find it sad that someone may well sit at their computer with an eyedropper tool and a notepad to catch palette "thieves". it's about as dumb as claiming ownership over a one-line hello world program
i mean if someone did spend the time to put a palette together and you used that palette from that person, you should give them some credit. but actually demanding credit for a tiny set of colors (not made with the intention of representing a standalone piece of art in themselves) is pretty stupid
@Hayo and Xgoff: So, your basically saying that even though that they don't own those colors I still have to give them credit? Your both basically on the line of this argument:
I SPENT OVER x/15+ HOURS MAKING THOSE SPECIFIC COLORS!!!##@#!!! HOW DARE YOU JUST USE THEM WILLY NILLY!!!!! THOSE ARE MY COLORS!!! YOU CAN"T USE THEM FOR ANYTHING ELSE UNLESS YOU GIVE ME ME ME ME PART CREDIT!!!!! THOSE ARE MINE, MINE, I TELL YOU!!!!! MINE MINE MINE MINE!!!!!!!11111!!!
Which was basically theirs. No one owns one, color, or a set of colors. And to demand the part credit of something for any number of colors to me is just selfish in it's own right.
All platforming problems can be mostly solved here:
Originally Posted by Xhunterko @Hayo and Xgoff: So, your basically saying that even though that they don't own those colors I still have to give them credit? Your both basically on the line of this argument:
I SPENT OVER x/15+ HOURS MAKING THOSE SPECIFIC COLORS!!!##@#!!! HOW DARE YOU JUST USE THEM WILLY NILLY!!!!! THOSE ARE MY COLORS!!! YOU CAN"T USE THEM FOR ANYTHING ELSE UNLESS YOU GIVE ME ME ME ME PART CREDIT!!!!! THOSE ARE MINE, MINE, I TELL YOU!!!!! MINE MINE MINE MINE!!!!!!!11111!!!
Which was basically theirs. No one owns one, color, or a set of colors. And to demand the part credit of something for any number of colors to me is just selfish in it's own right.
no, i'm saying you should think about a little mention it IF someone made a palette and you used that palette with the knowledge that person made it, but by no means should you be required or forced to. it would be pretty bad for someone to call you out because you "stole" a palette
one of the arguments of the side you mentioned is that "well, you own the EXACT colors in the palette". but there's nothing stopping me from taking a palette somebody else made, and changing all the rgb values by +-1 or 2. it's visually indistinguishable but since these are a different set of EXACT colors i apparently now "own" this palette. what took some guy 5 hours to set up took me 2 minutes to change, but it's not "his" palette because the colors are slightly off
in fact i'm more on your side than anything (but still close to the middle), but this doesn't really change the fact this is a huge gray area more than anything since you'd start having to draw arbitrary lines on what can and can't be considered credit-worthy
people should care less about the palette and more about the art being made with it
"people should care less about the palette and more about the art being made with it"
That's the argument that I tried to make as well. But oh no, they don't see it that way. It's someone owns a set of colors, and people MUST give credit no matter regardless of what's created with it. I was getting afraid that I would be disciplined or banned, since I wouldn't agree to the assumption that that person had part credit for the palette they used for anything made with it ad on infinitum. I started the same discussion on a revision3 forum. Lets see how far that gets me.
All platforming problems can be mostly solved here:
Originally Posted by Xhunterko "people should care less about the palette and more about the art being made with it"
That's the argument that I tried to make as well. But oh no, they don't see it that way. It's someone owns a set of colors, and people MUST give credit no matter regardless of what's created with it. I was getting afraid that I would be disciplined or banned, since I wouldn't agree to the assumption that that person had part credit for the palette they used for anything made with it ad on infinitum. I started the same discussion on a revision3 forum. Lets see how far that gets me.
the problem is, when you get into personal works, a lot of people become hugely attached to them, no matter what they are
it's one thing to claim ownership for full-blown artistic work, but for fundamental things like palettes it's really better in the end to just let it go
I do recall talking about how some famous artists do have specific palettes in my color theory class. I did not know this prior, so I guess what it should come down to is, if you never knew that your palette was used by someone else, then by all means, to what obligation do you honestly have, to need to look it up to make sure you give appropriate credit. However if you directly mimic another artists palette, then as Sketchy said, I do believe morally that you should be owe the original author some credit. Do I think you should be allowed to ban people from using your colors? Absolutely not, but I do think you should ethically need to give credit where credit is due if you're fully aware of what you're doing. Really, it's only fair.
Originally Posted by Xhunterko @Hayo and Xgoff: So, your basically saying that even though that they don't own those colors I still have to give them credit? Your both basically on the line of this argument:
I SPENT OVER x/15+ HOURS MAKING THOSE SPECIFIC COLORS!!!##@#!!! HOW DARE YOU JUST USE THEM WILLY NILLY!!!!! THOSE ARE MY COLORS!!! YOU CAN"T USE THEM FOR ANYTHING ELSE UNLESS YOU GIVE ME ME ME ME PART CREDIT!!!!! THOSE ARE MINE, MINE, I TELL YOU!!!!! MINE MINE MINE MINE!!!!!!!11111!!!
Which was basically theirs. No one owns one, color, or a set of colors. And to demand the part credit of something for any number of colors to me is just selfish in it's own right.
Hey now, that's an odd way to put it dude, and I don't appreciate it.
I said making a good palette is work, just like making a piece of code or good graphics is work. I don't own the events and values in my code and I don't own the pixels in my graphics. I don't own the colours in my palette. But it took effort to make it and that makes using it without giving credit not cool. I don't even see how there can be a discussion about it. In my case I would be ok with people using my palette, if they just ask.
If you want to start discussions so badly I would advise you to work on your way of reasoning a bit and stop exaggerating other peoples' points and don't pull them out on context. This is very likely to just piss a bunch of people off and that way you will never get close to what you want. Unless pissing people off is what you want
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2nd April, 2010 at 14:50:13 -
Originally Posted by Hayo ...I would advise you to work on your way of reasoning a bit and stop exaggerating other peoples' points and don't pull them out on context. This is very likely to just piss a bunch of people off and that way you will never get close to what you want. Unless pissing people off is what you want
Well said Hayo.
I don't really know what to think about palettes. My first reaction was "Of course you can't own a set of colours, that's stupid". But after reading some of your points I see some interesting arguments. I am a bit biased because I'm not an artist but I think it's pretty hard to come up with a good analogy of what using a palette means. I wouldn't compare it with using the engine from a game because I don't think that's similar at all.
However, I still don't think you can claim a palette, or should have to give credit for using someone else's palette.
"So, what if you coded an engine, and I take it and use it in my game and I don't credit you."
I made it open source didn't I? What do I care then?
So your still maintaining that YOU OWN those sets of colours?
"Does that make it ok to rip it from people?"
If I had taken an entire piece of art, then no. So your saying that not only does a person own a piece of art, but all the colors in it as well? I would like to see what more other people have to say about that. Specifically, every new artist that comes along. They can never use those colors without giving you part credit for their original works?
All platforming problems can be mostly solved here:
And why shouldn't people be credited for their creative effort?
Especially when you want to use it, because you like it or it saves the effort for you. All they ask in return is a little credit for their effort?
But why use a palette if you can use the entire sRGB colorspace? I am not sure if HP and Microsoft own the sRGB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB) colorspace, but they did invent it for the use on the internet. And I am not giving them a special credit for using it, but that's probably because the mentioning of sRGB is enough.
A palette is an artistic signature in digital artwork, the contrast and tone of any image is affected by these choice of colours. If you are producing digital images from these choice of colours then the result is arguably a derivative work of that palette. If you were to argue otherwise we might ask you why you are using that specific palette in the first place? You must recognise that the palette of choice has some effect on your artwork in order for you to specifically choose it, otherwise you would simply create your own and neglect the contribution that this palette makes to your artwork. If you are taking a palette from someone else you don't have to credit it at all, it's up to the creator you are taking it from. Hayo has already said it takes a long time to produce a palette, and therefore this would give a lot a strength to an argument that says a palette is protected by copyright. The creator reserves the right to its usage, and if they want you to credit them explicitly then you must comply with their terms of use if you so wish to use their work.
Originally Posted by Xhunterko "So, what if you coded an engine, and I take it and use it in my game and I don't credit you."
I made it open source didn't I? What do I care then?
So your still maintaining that YOU OWN those sets of colours?
"Does that make it ok to rip it from people?"
If I had taken an entire piece of art, then no. So your saying that not only does a person own a piece of art, but all the colors in it as well? I would like to see what more other people have to say about that. Specifically, every new artist that comes along. They can never use those colors without giving you part credit for their original works?
If they came up with the exact same colours as Hayo (which is extremely unlikely), they would not have to give him credit. But if they just willy nilly come and copy his then yes, Hayo deserves credit. After all, he spent a lot of time working on it. And if you didn't think making a pallet was work, then you wouldn't be copying one in the first place
Originally Posted by Xhunterko "So, what if you coded an engine, and I take it and use it in my game and I don't credit you."
I made it open source didn't I? What do I care then?
So your still maintaining that YOU OWN those sets of colours?
"Does that make it ok to rip it from people?"
If I had taken an entire piece of art, then no. So your saying that not only does a person own a piece of art, but all the colors in it as well? I would like to see what more other people have to say about that. Specifically, every new artist that comes along. They can never use those colors without giving you part credit for their original works?
If they came up with the exact same colours as Hayo (which is extremely unlikely), they would not have to give him credit. But if they just willy nilly come and copy his then yes, Hayo deserves credit. After all, he spent a lot of time working on it. And if you didn't think making a pallet was work, then you wouldn't be copying one in the first place
I don't think it's an issue with large palettes, like the one Hayo posted (or any 256-color palette), because with that many colors to choose from, the specific shades aren't really that important to the overall "feel" of an image.
However, suppose a piece of highly stylized pixelart uses a very limited palette, which contributes significantly to it having a very distinct "feel" - if you use that palette in order to give your own image that same "feel", then that's when you should think about giving credit.
"Obviously there can be no absolute rule on something like this, but people should be able to use a little common sense and their own moral judgment."
That would thereby imply that the person, once again, owns a previously free set of colors. If you or I make a black and white avatar, whose palette is black and white now? Nobody's but ours. And it doesn't matter if it's not black, or white. But that argument says, that a person owns those sets of colors becuase he came up with it. I've been working on a little diagram. But I should check out the palette that Hayo posted first. Just to see if he's not infringing on someone elses palette ownership.
All platforming problems can be mostly solved here:
Xhunterko think of it that way.
You make a 16x16 tile.
Each pixel has a color. You didn't create the individual colors and pixels but you did use them to make something. That something was your work, and therefore belongs to you. A palette is the same thing, except now only the colors matter. Organizing a palette/set of colors takes work, usually more than making a 16x16 tile. So while you didn't create the colors, you did create the set. That's your set, your work and belongs to you. Even if someone created a palette exactly like yours then it's still your work. Most punk rock bands use the same exact chord progressions for their songs, yet you don't see them sueing each other do you ?
Xhunterko:
No. That's not what I said at all. It's got absolutely nothing to do with ownership.
People are starting to get annoyed with you because you're not listening, or at least not understanding.
Stop trying to make this so philosophical/political, when really it's just a simple question of common sense and basic manners.
You can consider it a "service" if you prefer, rather than a "possession".
For example, Bob might build you a house. Bob doesn't (and never did) own it, because it's not on his land. However, it would be rude not to thank Bob for all his hard work, wouldn't it?
Similarly, if Bob creates a palette which you make use of, you should thank him, even though he does not "own" the palette. You are thanking him for his time and effort, not for the end result.
If you work hard and just happen to come up with a palette similar to one that someone else already created, then that's fine.
However, if you knowingly copy a palette, then you're getting someone else to do the work for you - if you have any manners at all, you will thank them.
Originally Posted by Sketchy Xhunterko:
No. That's not what I said at all. It's got absolutely nothing to do with ownership.
People are starting to get annoyed with you because you're not listening, or at least not understanding.
Stop trying to make this so philosophical/political, when really it's just a simple question of common sense and basic manners.
You can consider it a "service" if you prefer, rather than a "possession".
For example, Bob might build you a house. Bob doesn't (and never did) own it, because it's not on his land. However, it would be rude not to thank Bob for all his hard work, wouldn't it?
Similarly, if Bob creates a palette which you make use of, you should thank him, even though he does not "own" the palette. You are thanking him for his time and effort, not for the end result.
If you work hard and just happen to come up with a palette similar to one that someone else already created, then that's fine.
However, if you knowingly copy a palette, then you're getting someone else to do the work for you - if you have any manners at all, you will thank them.
Agreed!
Your just jealous that you're not as awesome as me.
(And my megaman avatar )
"You are using one of my blues in your avatar, I am gonna sue you."
That is the type of silliness that I am trying to protect against. Having seen enough arguments and having done some of my own research on the subject. I have come up to a conclusion.
Should I give you credit for any singular color? No. Besides, that blue is part of the common graphics gale palette.
If I were to use your entire palette and not give you any credit whatsoever, then yes. That would be wrong of me. I have never even said that I wouldn't give credit.
What I have maintained throughout my entire argument, is that that is your palette and I should give you credit for it, you don't own those colors. The topic that I have linked, the users still didn't see that that was my point. They have since called me a troll and have locked the thread. Which I think is very rude of them.
So, for the bullet point types who like to gloss over text.
1. Does anyone own a singular color/hue/shade/group? No.
2. Does someone need to be given credit for a palette they created that is used? Absolutely. I never said that they shouldn't.
3. Am I backpedaling? No
Does that work for everybody?
All platforming problems can be mostly solved here:
Originally Posted by Xhunterko "You are using one of my blues in your avatar, I am gonna sue you."
That is the type of silliness that I am trying to protect against. Having seen enough arguments and having done some of my own research on the subject. I have come up to a conclusion.
Should I give you credit for any singular color? No. Besides, that blue is part of the common graphics gale palette.
If I were to use your entire palette and not give you any credit whatsoever, then yes. That would be wrong of me. I have never even said that I wouldn't give credit.
What I have maintained throughout my entire argument, is that that is your palette and I should give you credit for it, you don't own those colors. The topic that I have linked, the users still didn't see that that was my point. They have since called me a troll and have locked the thread. Which I think is very rude of them.
So, for the bullet point types who like to gloss over text.
1. Does anyone own a singular color/hue/shade/group? No.
2. Does someone need to be given credit for a palette they created that is used? Absolutely. I never said that they shouldn't.
3. Am I backpedaling? No
Does that work for everybody?
About forty people on Pixelation and in this thread told you exactly that. I don't really see what your problem is, you just seem to look for trouble. Just like "So, for the bullet point types who like to gloss over text" is not likely to earn you any friends. Someone should protect you against your own silliness.
Originally Posted by Xhunterko I say that no one should give any one person credit for any one set of colors used.
I don't know, but that sounds different to what you're sayIng now. Maybe I'm just thinking of it wrong?
Also, had I posted earlier like I'd wanted to, I'd have said that a specific color scheme being used by a particular artist becomes an essential, integral part of their art style, and in copying their palette you'd be copying a bit of their style. While Hayo's example of coding an engine was a bit of a false analogy, I can see how he would come up with it: imagine someone codes an engine for a hookshot in a platformer, and you want to do so to. If you code it yourself then you don't need to give them credit, but if you download their engine and use that, then you must give credit unless told otherwise. He was just using that to emulate the issue of credit given for work received, like Sketchy and his friend Bob the builder.
Also said multiple times is that if you were to magically develop the same palette independently of seeing the palette in question then you'd be fine not giving credit. However, I think that if you were to take a palette and change the RGB value of each color by 1, you'd still need to give credit, in a similar manner to giving credit if you use someone else's engine for a game and make a few changes.
And yes, the too long didn't read thing might insult some people, especially those who have gone through your posts and read them thoroughly, and it wasn't a very long post to begin with.
I just think it's kinda false in that there are a myriad number of ways to code the same engine but not to come with a palette. You could look at a number of project sources and see many different ways to code a similar platforming engine, but if you see a bunch of similarly colored art and look at the palettes, they likely don't differ too much.
"I don't really see what your problem is, you just seem to look for trouble."
My problem was, and is this. At least a few of them had maintained that they still owned those colors as part of their intellectual property. That is what my problem was.
"I say that no one should give any one person credit for any one set of colors used."
"I don't know, but that sounds different to what you're sayIng now. Maybe I'm just thinking of it wrong?"
First comment is the case of the identical blue in me and hayo's work. There are probably some identical greys in in arne's palette as well as mine.
Second comment is me apologizing for saying to not give credit for the use of an person's entire pallette. Or even a good majority of it.
"So, for the bullet point types who like to gloss over text."
That may have been rude of me. So I apologize for that.
All platforming problems can be mostly solved here:
Originally Posted by Xhunterko "You are using one of my blues in your avatar, I am gonna sue you."
That is the type of silliness that I am trying to protect against. Having seen enough arguments and having done some of my own research on the subject. I have come up to a conclusion.
Sarcasm?
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@Xhunterko: In your opening post you said you lost the argument at pixelation, a forum for pixel artists. People that use palettes on a daily basis.
Now you created another thread here on the Daily Click, and the moment people start disagreeing with you, you lose it. Dude, it's enough already. It's over.
Maybe you should make your own palette from scratch so you'd have a better understanding of 'what the big deal is'.
I guess the difficulty in this seems to be that palettes have less degrees of freedom. But with a certain amount of colors, I think there is enough variability for someone to claim their own, like any piece of art.
I already stated that I was wrong, apologized, and asked if anything else needed to be said.
I may have taken comments out of context or misunderstood some points. So I apologize for that.
So, in effect, yes, a person should be given full credit for their pallette used.
I was only alarmed because I thought someone stated that a person's palette is also part of their intellectual property. Which I took to meant that they owned those colors.
I don't know what more could be said.
Unless an admin decides it appropriate to lock this thread as well.
All platforming problems can be mostly solved here:
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