I don't see any reason to commemorate this any more than the 8/31 baghdad stampede or amritsar massacre or the hindeburg. I think people do a real disservice to those that died that day
I'd rather see a commemoration to the hundreds of thousands of dead civilians caused by the presence of US soldiers in Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, and Pakistan for the past 10 years.
I'm a US citizen by birth, and although it was horrible that the Trade Center buildings were bombed, it's my opinion that the US response to the bombing has been unconscionable. Not to mention the destruction of US civil liberties and erosion of the Bill of Rights within our own country, coupled with the militarization of the police force. I personally do not support any current US military operations.
I actually had to fly on a plane yesterday, and to my surprise the only interruption of service was a loudspeaker in the morning (6:45am Pacific Time) requesting a moment of silence for those killed. Airport 'security' didn't seem any more annoying or invasive than usual. I recognized the day by reading George Orwell's Animal Farm in the airport before my flight.
Originally Posted by Fordom It was the jews who did it, you know.
Not that I like those sand dwellers or anything.
Just thought you'd know.
People here are pretty communist...
Racism, check.
Conspiracy theories, check.
Now all that's left, Fordom, is for you to eat a bag of dicks.
I remember what I was doing that day. I was in school and they announced that a plane hit the first tower.
At the time I don't think we knew if it was a terrorist attack or not. At least I didn't at first until later.
Alot of new people started coming to church after that, and people were wondering when the next attack would be.
People didn't feel safe in their own home because the attack broke people out of their comfort zone for a while.
Then those anthrax attacks. Sending letters with poison in them. Crazy stuff.
Originally Posted by Fordom It was the jews who did it, you know.
Not that I like those sand dwellers or anything.
Just thought you'd know.
People here are pretty communist...
Racism, check.
Conspiracy theories, check.
Now all that's left, Fordom, is for you to eat a bag of dicks.
Originally Posted by Fordom It was the jews who did it, you know.
Not that I like those sand dwellers or anything.
Just thought you'd know.
People here are pretty communist...
Racism, check.
Conspiracy theories, check.
Now all that's left, Fordom, is for you to eat a bag of dicks.
Communism, check.
I can't even begin to imagine how that statement was communist.
Nah, I'm just being obnoxious, which is much different from Communism (although they may share some characteristics). You've consistently proven that you don't know the difference between the two.
Apologies to Phred for derailing. I'll refrain in the future.
I remember watching it all live on tv in a cafe. Firstly I and everyone around thought it was an accident, but then the second plane hits the tower and everyone is so petrified the cafe went silent all of sudden. I wasn't even sure if what had just happened was real or not, even the reporter went like "I can't believe what I'm seeing. This looks like a hollywood grade action movie, except it's very real and it's happening right in front of my eyes". However we only realized how serious the situation was and the scale of the events until the towers collapsed and they started showing footage of the pentagon attack as well. Before that the reporters were saying that the death toll could ascend to over a hundred deaths, little had they imagined it would reach almost 3000.
I fully support all military action taken by anyone against the people who did it. War is one thing, but flying 2 fully loaded planes into 2 sky scrapers full of people working is far beyond the realms of people who should be allowed to breath the same air as everyone else.
I think they should keep on fighting these animals until there is not a single one left slithering across the earth. (terrorists, before im called a racist).
More killings is never the solution, specially the number of innocent people who died in the so called wars on terror was much, much bigger than the number of people who died in 9/11 attacks.
Human lives are all worth the same, regardless of their country, race, possessions or way of life. For as much as I loathe whoever organized the attacks, what succeeded next was even worse and 10 years later even with bin laden dead no one can say it was worth it, because it wasn't. Terrorism is still a serious issue and the dead is still dead.
Human lives are all worth the same, regardless of their country, race, possessions or way of life.
True, but that's not why terrorists are targets.
When you forfeit someones life, then your own life is forfeit.
Now whether or not we reacted correctly or not is another story, and one we will never really know the answer to.
Any predictions about what could'a or should'a happened would be just that, predictions.
What I meant by "Human lives are all worth the same, regardless of their country, race, possessions or way of life. " was that the lives of those who died in the 9/11 attacks are worth the same as the lives of the innocents who died in the "war on terror". I'm not saying terrorists should be spared, I'm just saying that the bloodbath that followed the attacks was a disgrace since more innocents died than terrorists.
And I don't think anyone can say the following wars were worth it if none of the main objectives weren't achieved.
The taliban still have a strong presence in Afghanistan, no nuclear weapons were found in Iraq and no terrorist cells were destroyed during the wars.
The main objective of this entire crusade was to find and kill bin laden, and ironically that was achieved with only one casualty.
So again, how can someone say all those deaths were worth it ?
If you attack one of the most powerful nations in the world then they retaliate, and sadly it has to be under the cover of something silly like WMD's instead of straight out retaliation. The problem with this world is there are too many liberal bystanders judging those who keep them safe. If someone destroyed everything that you loved and worked hard for would you stand by and say "Thats not fair but as long as noone else gets hurt its ok?" i doubt it.
Bin laden is just a man and him being alive or dead is just bragging rights. The people who decided and planned to do 9/11 are just a small piece of what the target was and still is. The war is against those who oppose western life and want to enforce a religion with violence. These people will never stop and not going to war is nothing more than waving a white flag .
Hitler was no different and saying that fighting the nazi's was unneccisary blood shed would be ridiculous however back then the soldiers had the support of the country they where protecting.
War isnt pretty and people die. I have lost friends in this war however they died with honour fighting so that people can sit at their computers and condemn them without fear of someone blowing their house up.
I understand your oppinion and you are correct that colour, race etc holds no relivance. this war is not about that. Its about a small selection of people who have warped a set of beliefs into nothing more than a justification for their violence.
Out of respect for Phredreeke's original post, I'll erase my long, drawn-out reply, and just quote Antworx and briefly comment here.
If someone destroyed everything that you loved and worked hard for would you stand by and say "Thats not fair but as long as noone else gets hurt its ok?" i doubt it.
I think that's exactly the same notion that went through the bombers' minds when they decided to do the thing.
Perhaps I shouldn't have erased my longer response at all...
First off, Antworx: it's sad that you lost friends in the war. It's unfortunate to hear that. My disagreement with you has nothing to do with their deaths. I also have a handful of acquaintances over there that I know of, and I hope they make it home with everything intact.
And UGH. Of course I don't support the bombers...That would be insane. However, I do think it's asinine to consider the US innocent and undeserving of such an attack. Considering that Bin Laden & Co. were trained, paid, and supplied by the US as assailants against Russia during the Cold War, and the terrain of southwestern Asia/north Africa was crawling with CIA operatives, puppet regimes, paid-for assassinations, and dirty money put up by the US for decades...Blowback for such exploitation was inevitable. We're talking about decades of pent-up resentment here.
Of course, the US government had been looking for a palatable excuse to invade the area so they could install permanent bases there and extract all the natural resources (before China did, but that's just speculation on my part). First they pinned it on Saddam Hussein; when that turned out to be bogus, they refocused their spin machine so efforts against Bin Laden could be redoubled. An announcement of his death was created to pump up Obama in the polls, and over two dozen of the Navy SEALs responsible for the famous raid were later killed and the body was "dumped in the ocean" to silence dissenting/questioning voices.
If the war was about killing Bin Laden, then why are troops still there months later? If it was about "establishing stability and democracy" in those countries, then why would it have taken a horrible bombing to prompt that reaction? Things there were a mess long before 9-11.
Originally Posted by Antworx If you attack one of the most powerful nations in the world then they retaliate, and sadly it has to be under the cover of something silly like WMD's instead of straight out retaliation. The problem with this world is there are too many liberal bystanders judging those who keep them safe.
And why exactly would they need to retaliate in cover ? If the US had proof that a particular country was supporting a terrorist organization then why would anyone oppose them from attacking ? Thing is, they had no proof and so needed to make up excuses. The 9/11 attacks were only a pretext, they used it and used it well to remove Saddam and the taliban because they were barring them from profiting from their respective countries natural resources, i.e oil. It wasn't the first time in history the US did that, and the 9/11 attacks were precisely made in retaliation for their previous endeavors. Or do you believe they targeted the US in particular because they felt like it?
And I can tell you I don't feel any safer after the iraq and afghanistan invasions. Well on the contrary, the US dragged many countries into the invasions including Portugal, where I live. A few years ago a bomb attack killed almost 200 people and wounded 2000 right next door, in Spain in retaliation for their support of the US cause. Not very far from here, a year later, another bombing in london killed more people, again in retaliation for the invasions. None of this sounds like safety to me.
Originally Posted by Antworx
Bin laden is just a man and him being alive or dead is just bragging rights. The people who decided and planned to do 9/11 are just a small piece of what the target was and still is. The war is against those who oppose western life and want to enforce a religion with violence. These people will never stop and not going to war is nothing more than waving a white flag .
Hitler was no different and saying that fighting the nazi's was unneccisary blood shed would be ridiculous however back then the soldiers had the support of the country they where protecting.
Those are completely different situations. Nazi germany was one of the most powerful nations in the world, the al qaeda is only a (relatively) small organization. Their aims are completely different, and I can assure you the aim of al qaeda have nothing to do with hate of the western way of life or enforcing religion on anyone. I for sure didn't feel any more like converting to islam after the 9/11 attacks than before, on the other hand they caused people to look at muslims with prejudice even if the large majority were disgusted at what happened.
Now tell me, going to war solved anything ? If the US really wants to get the culprits then they can. They killed bin laden, the head of Al qaeda with minimal casualities. Was it necessary to invade Iraq and Afghanistan and kill thousands along the way ? Now that didn't solve anything.
Originally Posted by . : UrbanMonk : .
Originally Posted by s-m-r I think that's exactly the same notion that went through the bombers' minds when they decided to do the thing.
So you support the bombers?
I think his point was that neither side was right, not that he supported the bombings.
Originally Posted by Antworx I dont think thats what made the bombers do it. It was un provoked.
It wasn't unprovoked. There is a lot of history behind what motivated them to attack but I think that's beside the point.
They blew whatever reasons they had when they decided to do what they did.
Good points made Johnny and SMR. the sad fact is no matter how much people discuss these matters its always gonna end in blood shed. I never believed for a minute that retaliating would make us safer however that is the nature of war. I live in London and work in the city center and was working the day of the bombing there. That was another act of war. Terrorism is war.
Muslims have been given a bad reputation for this war and that is unfair and i do not dispute this. I have many Muslim friends and have seen first hand the trouble they have had as a result.
Bottom line i think is that people cannot live in peace. Oil, money and power is a small portion of the cause of war. It is down to different ideals and beliefs and this has been the cause of war since the dawn of time and it will never change.
I agree that there is always going to be war somewhere in the world, sadly fighting is part of our nature and that's never going to change. Perhaps if politicians fought the war instead of our soldiers ?
Bottom line i think is that people cannot live in peace. Oil, money and power is a small portion of the cause of war. It is down to different ideals and beliefs and this has been the cause of war since the dawn of time and it will never change.
People only want oil to fuel their vehicles and machines. People only want money so they can have a place to live, food to eat and enjoy "things". People only want power because they are scared of the lives they willl lead without it. We need to rebuild our entire world from the ground up. A world with free renewable energy for everybody and where people work together to build homes, grow food and share all new technologies. The world we live in today is both criminally insane and accuses anyone transgressing its norms of being utterly mad. Making it difficult for a person to make such changes and easy for the few greedy men on top to rape the rest of us. Government and other all forms of control/forces of evil must all be destroyed or at the very least decentralized. Nobody is more qualified to control our lives than we are.
Unfortunately, greedy men have too much invested in this world. It is all they have. So, sadly, we are going to need something very big, I'm talking a zombie apocalypse, a nuclear exchange, an alien invasion, killer bees, to tear this world to pieces and people like you and me can build a new one from the rubble of the old.
I had my fifth driving lesson when this happened. My driving instructor was completely losing his shit when when we heard it on the radio and panicked when the second plane hit. I was like "dude, this is really nasty but people do this to each other all the time".
ZOMBIE apocalypse would be awesome but sadly as always an antidote would be found and then the doctor would be all like "i am king of the world" and would live in a huge tower block at the top with all soldiers around and then would sell the antidote for cash or goods collected from the zombie infested world outside the city walls that he built to keep people safe but charge them fortunes to live within. You know, that old story!
Aliens would be bad as they would first come here in the guise of keano reaves and say shit like "your planet?" and the americans will instantly attack it for no reason then it would destroy the world but stop it last minute as the aliens realised that humans are capable of love and only change at the last monent.
and as for Nuclear. Have you played fall out 3? it wont be a war for oil. It would then be kill for food while groups of mutant bandits scour the wastelands for food and humans to eat. Humans would survive but one blind man with the only bible left on earth would be all like "hey this is my book, and i can fight like a ninja" and kills everyone who is trying to get the bible.
Killer bees would be unpleasant but at least we would have honey to eat if all went pear shaped.
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I'll refrain in the future.
Edited by Johnny Look
