1 - You can still put all the dll files in the game folder without having the installer.
2 - Not being able to copy the game to the desktop and try it and then deleting it is very annoying.
3 - It creates folders on the Start Menu that you have to delete after using
4 - It creates icons on the desktop that you have to delete after using the game
5 - Most of the times the uninstall process fails on some computers.
6 - If the uninstall process fails, for some people means having the name of your game on your add/remove programs for ever.
7 - Most of the time everything would seem to go smoothly. You uninstall the game and it autodestructs almost as perfect as if you didn't use an installer. But it actualy LEAVES the info on the registry, adding to your computer slowdown over the years until you format.
8 - It 245% most clicks to just start playing the game. And my time is valuable.
9 - It's a harassment
10 - It makes circy cry
11 - When you uninstall the game, it deletes de dlls from system32 that OTHER klik games still use, so basicaly when you uninstall one klik game, you uninstall all klik games.
12 - Many times i see a good game, but i can't really be arsed to test it and risk all the errors that a posible bad installer could generate on my computer.
13 - You can never trust installers
14 - No one really wants to keep your games on the program files folder.
15 - Everyone puts all the MMF games on a MMF folder on their desktop, so they can be deleted easely.
16 - If you want to delete the game, you cant just right click on it and delete it, you have to go to add/remove programs.. wich is very far away.
17 - Maybe you don't want to trust an installer made by who knows who.. that has unknown access to all the system folders of your computers
18 - It's bad enough that you're clicking on exes all the time, leave alone letting it copy files everywhere- adding to the risk
19 - I really really don't like these installers, seriously
20 - why would anyone go through the trouble of making an installer anyway? isn't it easyer to just hand me the game ffs???
21 - If you really care about the people you distrubute your game, don't try to pretend you are a game company.. installers are something to be avoided, it's not an advantage. Consoles are better becasue you just put the game and start playing, right? why would you make an installer for a 2 mb game huh?
22 - If you really want to save disk space, zip your file. Everyone knows how to unzip a file, we aren't old ladies who need to just double click on something and if that doesnt work we are DEAD.
So there.. those are all the reasons of why you shouldnt use installers imo
I can't be bothered reading all that but creating desktop items you have to delete? Depends if the creator ticks a little box telling it to do that. Fail on some computers? Really? I've never had a problem.
How about some counter reasons? Have you ever released a game that was popular outside of clicking circles? With people who don't have .dll files showing and are using Windows own zip folders rather than winzip/winrar? I've had countless emails from folk asking "why do I get a dmc2.cox error?". because they didn't bloody copy all the files over, or are trying to play games in the zip folders.
Plus installers can save non-clikers a lot of hassle. Such as bass.dll. I noticed that Cave Jumper installed bass.dll into the system folder. Cheers guys! Things like that are brilliant. reduces problems for other folk. always good.
big games, loads of external files and folders (aka, loads of potential to go wrong) probably need installers. small, 1 exe and 1 dll games; no.
2- Installer places a shortcut. one click and the game is running
3- Uninstaller deletes this
4- Uninstaller deletes this
5- Wot? Never had trouble. I had trouble with zipped crap though ...
6- Wot? Never had trouble. I had trouble with zipped crap though ...
7- What registry entries please? Installers doesnīt create registry entries by default. Just the normal ones like a folder and a shortcut would do anyway. They just add exra values when you explicit tell them to.
8- Ah yes, math. One click at the shortcut to start a game is still one click. Whereīs 245% here?
9- It is not.
10- But not me
11- Not true.
12- Not true.
13- But you can trust people to manually start things, eh?
14- Yeah, totally useless. Who needs program files directory anyway. By the way, the user can always choose another destination for installing ...
15- Hello Mister Everyone, nice to meet you. You are a rare species, are you?
16- Nope: start/my game/uninstaller
17- And so does a zip file which may contain crap.
18- What risk please? installer is thought to install ...
19- Agreed, but no argument.
20- Always think of the dumbest user. It is easy to click at install. It is one click at the desktop shortcut to start the game. And itīs one click to uninstall. Which is ways easier than creating a folder open a zipfile and sort all this stuff. And ways more comfortable than searching through, handling and deleting dozens of folders at the desktop.
21- totally disagree.
22- An installer is nothing else than a zipfile with more comfort. It automatically unzips and installs your stuff.
My two cents: Zip files are crap when you want to distribute your game. Use an installer instead. It is ways more comfortable for the user. And is much more professional.
I think nearly everyone dislikes installers, because they can create a lot of hassle when theres no need to.
What I do if I really want to play a game with an installer, is:
1) Install the game (boo!) into C:\Games\NameOfGame\
2) Then I copy the folder C:\Games\NameOfGame\ and put it onto the desktop
3) Then I uninstall the game from the add/remove programs list (or the uninstall.exe file) and it will remove all the rubbish that it has put on your start menu and stuff and also the C:\Games\NameOfGame\ directory.
4) Then I delete the uninstall.exe file from the copied folder (seeing as it'd not work anymore) and then run the game! Then eventually chuck it into the folder with all the other klik games ive downloaded!
Well. There isn't really 22 reasons. Only 3 or 4.. i was just trying to be funny .
Jimmi: Hey, give at least a zip version for klikkers, right?
Tiles:
Hey man.. I'm just saying, for me it's way faster to use zip files.
If you think installers fool me into thinking the game is "professional", you've got another thing coming.
"OMG INSTALLERS LOOK MORE PROFFESSIONAL" is bullshit. Of course non-clickers would rather have a (for them) easy to use installer, but the average click game doesn't need one. It just annoys people when they have to go through the whole process of installing a small click game. It doesn't make you look more proffessional, it makes you look like an idiot who thinks you're proffessional.
If you ask me, normal click games should just be zipped. Bigger click games should allow users to choose, zip or installer. It's logical, easy, and everyone stays happy that way. Yes?
yeah lol. It's not like i download your installer and double click and i orgasm as everything is done automaticaly..
If anything i get nervous of what will happen after i let it copy unknown files all over my windows folders
Aren't the extensions compiled into the exe? At least if you have them in the runtime folder when you build it. I don't think you have to include extensions unless the application is open source.
+ Some add icons to desktop (I'm not sure if Install creator lets you choose this?)
+ Adds menus and icons under your "All programs" area
+ Adds more stuff to "Add/Remove programs" under control panel
And I download about 5 klik games every week (that's around how many are submitted here every week now ) - so I prefer a zip file. I know the above points are little things, but when you download lots of klik games with installers then they'd get annoying for me. Some prefer zip, some prefer installer - just a matter of opinion really.
I provide graphics in zipfiles. And i provide games that comes with an installer. Now guess where the trouble makers came and come from. Mails from users having trouble with zipfiles: lots of them. Even after i put up the various solutions in my FAQ. Mails from users having trouble with installers: none.
Sure, using an installer is no guarantee that the content is good. But it shows that the creator is a bit more experienced and doesnīt simply use a zipfile. You have to know what you are doing though.
At least when your game gets onto a cover cd you need an installer. I have never seen a zipfile at a cover cd. Thatīs what i meant with professional ...
Installers are fucking stupid. They have no redeeming qualities for anything that isn't going to be used so often that it needs a damn shortcut. I don't want click games on my desktop, let alone my damn registry, and forcing me to use installers/uninstallers to do things I should be able to do with a context menu 'extract' or the delete key is an insult.
You want to keep your files together? Use an extractor. Maybe NSIS as long as you don't use a hard gay script.
But it shows that the creator is a bit more experienced and doesnīt simply use a zipfile.
That's bull. Seeing a klik game that uses the clickteam installer screams 'NOOOOOB' to me. It's becoming more and more common for commercial software to be available in archives or extractors rather than installers unless it's absolutely necessary.
Usually I've only used installers for some of my larger games, like Diamond: Revolution which came at over 20MB, other then that... I would much rather using ZIP or RAR (both me and other people) for the main reason... I would much rather be able to just try out the game and then remove it. I dont feel like wasting 30 seconds of my time, just to uninstall a game I had on my computer for 5 minutes and got bored. Rarely do click games have such a high last ability that people would much rather keep the game on their PC. Another thing I hate is the EXE zips; you know... the one that unzip everything into a temp folder that you can almost NEVER find!
This post only says that not everyone likes installers.
I downloaded that cool cave game with freakingly low resolution. And it had an installer.. and the uninstaller seemed to work how it should. But what if it didn't, you know what i mean?
Even if the game it's good, I usually don't want to keep it on the add/remove programs, thing, wich is already crowded as it is.
Also someone said something about games getting on a cd cover - when you make your cd, do it how you like it. I'm talking about Download-Try-Delete method.
Zip files are fucking stupid for games. You canīt even create a shortcut with it. I dont wanīt dozen of zipfiles at my desktop. I donīt want to be bothered to manually create the folders to extract them. I donīt want to be bothered to manually handle all this stuff. And of course i donīt want my users to bother with such stuff. Because i know my guys. Give them two buttons and they click the wrong one in 90% of all cases.
And again: your registry isnīt harmed by an installer. Not more than by creating a normal folder besides the uninstall shield.
You want to keep your files together? Use an installer for games. The alternative is to create ONE exe with no external files. Then, agreed, an installer makes no sense. But also a zipfile then...
"But it shows that the creator is a bit more experienced and doesnīt simply use a zipfile."
That's defintely no bull. For me seeing a klik game that uses a zipfile screams 'NOOOOOB' to me. Not able to handle such a simple thing like an installer. What will the game be then. Poor soul ...
And again: your registry isnīt harmed by an installer. Not more than by creating a normal folder besides the uninstall shield
You canīt even create a shortcut with it.
I don't want a shortcut. If I did, I'd make one myself. It takes less time to extract a zip and right-click-drag a new shortcut than it does to click through an installer, and it doesn't fill up my whole screen. An installer wastes my time and more often than not creates multiple icons I have to delete. If you're scripting the installer not to create icons, or fuck with the registry, or place any files in system directories, then you do not need an installer and doing so because it makes you look more 'professional' is fucking idiotic. That's the reason noobs constantly use installers rather than zips, because they think it looks professional. It does not. As I said, it's becoming the standard now for professionally-designed software to favour extractors or a discreet NSIS over installers unless it's necessary.
You want to keep your files together? Use an installer for games. The alternative is to create ONE exe with no external files. Then, agreed, an installer makes no sense. But also a zipfile then...
Are you incapable of reading? In almost any situation that precludes the use of an archive, an extractor is a better choice than an installer.
I've always been very anti-installer, but Radix is explaining all my reasoning with far more venom than I ever could.
One thing that I've always liked about Macs (and trust me, there are very few of those things) is that the applications are almost entirely self-contained - for the most part, dragging a program onto your computer installs it and dragging it to the bin deletes it. MMF programs have the capability to be like that, if they're packaged as a single folder inside a ZIP.
To extract such a zipped folder, it's a matter of dragging the folder out of the compressed folder window and into my GFGames directory. (It still hasn't been renamed after about six years.) If the game comes in an installer, I have to drag it out and then run the installer, telling it where I want things to go - something that is done in a drag and drop step otherwise.
That's not a huge bother, but it's when the default GFactory installer is used that it really gets to me. By default it tries to put things in c:\windows\, which is more than a little insulting. People say that it's only a few clicks to install a game, but when the few clicks could be replaced by a simple drag and drop, it's a comparatively vast overhead.
"For me seeing a klik game that uses a zipfile screams 'NOOOOOB' to me. Not able to handle such a simple thing like an installer. What will the game be then. Poor soul ..."
Yes, just like you said, anyone can make an installer. It's so simple. That's one of the reasons all noobs use installers; because it's as easy as ticking a box when you build it, or by using install maker (Which is so easy even GameMaker users use it, and they should be the definition of noobishness). It's so easy even a noob can do it, it's so cheap, thus the noobishness of using installers for klik games.
If you want to distribute your games on CDs, then do so with an installer, fine. But when you download stuff, in 90% of the cases, you want to delete it quickly after use. Using an installer for a downloadable klik game is just fucktarded.
Still, running out of arguments is no reason to start to flame. I think itīs you that simply cannot read nor understand what others say. Simply shout louder doesnīt make an argument true ...
Oh my, Uninstall shield creates one registry entry. Whoah! Bloody hell, this will explode the whole thing ...
Radix, maybe YOU donīt want a shortcut. But when you want to provide your game sucessfully you need to make it as easy as possible for all your users. You simply cannot bother a standard pc user to tinker around with zipfiles which possibly never have heard anything about MMF nor zipfiles. And thatīs the mainclient. Most of them knows how to turn on the PC. And are able to use an installer. But thatīs it in most cases.
And thatīs the reason why an installer doesnīt look more professional, but IS more professional.
Again, at least when your game goes to a cover cd at a game magazine you need an installer. I have never seen a zipped game at a cover cd. My games are at cover cdīs. What about yours?
Repeating wrong statements doesnīt make them more true. I donīt know where you heard this strange rumour that professionals mainly use a zipfile to provide their software. It is simply not true. Tell me one who does this, and i tell you tenhousands for each that uses installers for their products.
Tell me about your problems with installers, and i tell you hundrets of problems with zipfiles. Mainproblems:
-hey, the zipfile is empty (while the stupid inbuild windows zip module simply fails to show the content. Zipsoftware opens it fine)
-hey, it doesnīt download (while the oh so well experienced user has chosen to download with "open" instead "save as".)
-hey, the zipfile is passwordprotected (while the zipfile is in fact NOT passwordprotected. Still searching for the reason for that)
-hey, which file in the zip is the correct one? (the oh so well experienced user and more than one choice, you know ... )
I received lots of mails in the past with such kind of trouble when it comes to zipfiles. But in received not a single one that was installer related.
I stay with my opinion, based at experience : when anyone can make an installer, he definitely should. Zipfile is a bad choice to provide a game. Just noobs bothers users with zipfiles. But thatīs just my private opinion, which you donīt have to share ...
Tiles, I think you are the only person with that view.
Installers very often leave folders in windows or program files directories after uninstalling the game. That makes a mess that I don't want on my pc. It's just a lot more convenient to have a game in a zip folder than an installer. Not profesionally but for downloaded freeware. There are so many games to choose from that a slight inconvenience like and installer can be enough to turn someone away altogether.
Also ive tried loads of games that don't make a shortcut on the desktop so i have to search for the thing to try it out, not good.
I don't know what cd's you own, but I see a lot of installers and zip archives on cd's that I own. There isn't a major problem with people not knowing what the heck zip files are because it's usually explained how to open them and a copy of winzip or winrar is usually on the cd is needed. Windows xp users can uncompress zip files without it anyway.
You know, I have to say that Tiles made a point there - you have to assume that the majority of users do not have a clue what they're doing. In the context of this community it's not a problem (with ZIP files, at least, as we all know how to use them), but if your game is for a wide audience such as one for a magazine coverdisc, they're probably going to expect it to install and extract itself.
But then he said that Just noobs bothers users with zipfiles and messed things up a bit again. I "bother user with zipfiles" so that they have the convenience of a drag-and-drop program. I don't think that that's bothering them.
If you're making a game only for the community, then just zip it. Else, use an installer. Or, maybe the best solution, let people choose; upload both installer and zip versions.
I just followed the given words of this thread when i used the word "noob" in conjunction with zipfiles. Because in an earlier post somebody stated that just people who uses installers ...
So sorry, i didnīt want to state everybody as noob just because of the fact that he uses zip files to provide his/her games. It was just thought as a reply to those guys.
Anyway. Facts and arguments are better suited for a good discussion. I will not call anybody a noob because he uses this or that. For me there are just more or less experienced users.
For me the facts are told. The choice is yours.
Note: It really seems that we need a tutorial how to create a good installer. Some helpful points:
*.cox files are definitely nothing to put into an installer.
A start menu entry and a shortcut are the mainreasons to use an installer. Else it is really useless.
Everything game related needs to be placed within the same folder than the game.exe. So that the uninstaller may not uninstall a newer DLL from the systems folder.
The Titan Omega zip file has had a miniscule number of downloads compared to the .exe version. but like somebody above said - installers do well outside of the community.
All that said... Sam had a much bigger launch than either Titan Omega games and that was zip only. Nobody has emailed me yet about installation problems. they must be getting smarter.
But yea. Never ever use those built in installers with TGF. urgh.
Tiles, you're acting like a douche. I'll say this one more time because you seem to be struggling with the language:
In almost any situation that precludes the use of an archive, an extractor is a better choice than an installer.
How about you counter that point rather than repeating the same shit over and over? Verbosity does not equsal validity.
I donīt know where you heard this strange rumour that professionals mainly use a zipfile to provide their software.
I NEVER FUCKING SAID THAT YOU BLOODY ILLITERATE. Perhaps English isn't your mother tongue, so here's a pro tip: "archive" and "extractor" are spelled and pronounced differently because they're different words.
Situations that require an installer:
- Applications that *need* to modify the registry (incidentally, the installshield modifications do not create one entry, it creates multiple, in an already typically bloated list. There is only a valid need iff: )
- Changes are made to system or shared directories
Otherwise, your arguments are what? That it creates icons? As I've said, it takes less time and clicks to extract an archive and right-click-drag out an icon. This is a basic direct-interaction skill of the windows interface.
Oh, and it's "more professional"? That's bull, and it's been covered multiple times. What you're doing is imitating things you think are professional: that's not the same thing. They're using installers because it's necessary, and additionally, their software is professionally designed. The latter does not imply the former; your logic is ridiculous. Where there is no need, professional software is far more likely to use an extractor nowadays, whether you like it or not, because users do not like bloat.
You speak of demo CDs. I don't know what you read, but none of the computing mags I buy favour installers. If I were to look at one of those now, I'd find one or two installers, a handfull of archives, and a majority of extractors.
I prefer a zip file.. if you prefer an install file because it gives your game a commercial look, that's great.
Maybe you could give the rest of us a zip choice we can download instead. Becasue I don't want your game to add up on my add/removes programs.
If you want to be a profecional so bad, why don't you stop being such a stubborn dude and distribute your game in a way isn't annoying to so many people?
@Radix, point taken. Have indeed overread the self extractor part. But i have still another opinion. And i stay with it. Thatīs all. The computer mags that i prefer has software with installers mostly. Rarely zipfiles nor self extractors. I personally prefer installers for games.
I haven't really noticed a decrease in the use of installers on magazine coverdiscs. Admittedly, though, I haven't bought one in the last ten years or so.
Admittedly I only read IT industry magazines, not games ones. But they'd be a better indication of what's smart rather than just what's tolerable.
n/a
Deleted User
16th March, 2006 at 11:57:37 -
that gave me inspiration to make a install programs maker that will do everything good
plus a test and delete option - after install the game will be opened and deleted after closing the install.
and all shortcuts will be created only if a check box is checked.
and i never got a CT install creator/maker uninstall to crash or do something bad.
This reminds me how once I made a post saying that i didn't like fake company intro logos on games, and i thought it was stupid to have intro logos because you aren't a company.
And everyone started calling me a n00b, and that intro logos was to build up a "reputation", I loled for weeks. This is similar in the sense that i'm just expressing my opinion on something, it's like taste on music or food, no matter what you say i will always like the same, so it's pretty dumb to come and NEGATE what I've said.
What you can do, though. Is offer both options so everyone is happy. Cuz lets face it, installers are really annoying compared to zip files: They add folders and icons without asking you, when you uninstall it deletes the dll files back.. wich kills all other mmf games you had installed, it adds an unnesesary entry on add/remove programs, etc.
about extensions:
the extansions ARE compiled into the EXE.
but, the DLLs that some exts need are not.
sometimes, the program gets mad and don't read the cox files right, and i gives a "can't find file feezee.cox" error.
but, if there are cox files in the folder this won't happen.
most of times it never happen, but i got it to happen with one of my old CNC program
I don't really know why you'd want a company name when you're only one dude. I have a symbol I use as a signature in a lot of stuff, so I can't really say anything about logos themselves.
I've always used the DXF Games name, even back when I made games with BASIC on the ol' Apple IIe. I thought nothing of it really. The DXF Games logo appears before every game I've made lately. Yeah, I understand about if you're only one guy it's retarded, but it was SUPPOSED to be me and one other guy who helped me sometimes. Unfortunately, this guy has been MIA for weeks, so it looks like it's going to be just me doing 100% of the games instead of 99% like before (intentional jab). Hah, that's my story, what can you do? Lemonade from Lemons hopefully.
Overall, I don't see a problem with a company logo as long as it's not overly offensive or makes the eyes bleed. I just take it as the person's "stamp" on their product.
Edited by the Author.
--
"Del Duio has received 0 trophies. Click here to see them all."
"To be a true ninja you must first pick the most stealthy of our assorted combat suits. Might I suggest the bright neon orange?"
DXF Games, coming next: Hasslevania 2- This Space for Rent!
I didn't really think about Logos, which i think is the reason why people use Installers and fake loading bars. They don't really put thought into them, they just do it to make it look like a commercial game.
What i said before was just my opinion. If you think your logo is cool that's great.
Hey, maybe your logo is funny and doesn't pretend to fool people into thinking you got some big company going on, that'd be great. But if it does everyone is going to get annoyed at those 10 seconds of bull-.
And when someone comes and say i'm wrong and that i'm a noob.. I personaly think they are dumb. My opinion is my opinion, the only way to change it is giving me a real reason. Honestly that someone else thinks i'm a newbie doesn't convince me into changing my mind.
In all my years in the Click Community I've come up with one simple indicator to this problem:
Your game looks better with an installer if it looks better with a loading screen.
In other words, if people would enjoy sitting down, looking at a random, obvious tip, then there's a chance they'd enjoy the installer... but only if your installer also has random, obvious tips. But if they're just there for decoration, they're VERY ugly, like long transitions and green lipstick.
However, there are a few cases where I don't mind an installer. For extensions maybe, where the docs, examples, ext files have to be put in certain categories. They also look nice for REAL games that you want on your desktop, like The UnReal World, the Avernum series, The Spirit Engine, etc. Even ED wouldn't really qualify.
If you really insist on using an installer, put the game in both a zip file AND installer and let the downloader choose which one he/she wants.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
If Winrar can do both ZIP and RAR, then I think thats all we can ask for. After I got my new computer, I have yet to touch Winzip, I've just been using WinRar.
RAR is a bad format, unless you need to split files. Normal winzip-type zips (which use the DEFLATE algorithm, I think) aren't much better, but others are. If you want to use an archive, you at least know everyone can open a zip. In terms of compression winRK is best.
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Edited by the Author.
) - so I prefer a zip file. I know the above points are little things, but when you download lots of klik games with installers then they'd get annoying for me. Some prefer zip, some prefer installer - just a matter of opinion really.
This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into ur
Klik with the kid!