This is rather un-PC but I do somewhat question the validity of the state of Israel. That said, people are living there today through no fault of their own. Bombing civilian targets is wrong, regardless. To say that Israel has had to put up with terrorism is a very skewed point of view, terrorist itself is a very skewed word, but most of the Palestinians that many have deemed 'terrorists' would consider themselves 'freedom fighters', as a marginalised people desperately attempting to overthrow their oppressors. This does not excuse violence against civilians, but simply exposes the typical western view that we should 'kick terrorist arse' without attempting to find the roots of the problem.
It's such a shame to see Lebanon, a country that had achieved relative peace (relative to its own history and the rest of the middle east), becoming such a dangerous place again. A lot of kids from my school were there seeing relatives when the conflict started. I can't helpo but feel that Iraeli leaders are acting like twelve year olds. Twelve year olds with US support (there's no way around it, the elite in America by-and-large have Israels interests at heart).
The attack itself is directly comparable to the American-led Allies-supported invasion of Afghanistan.
No, it isn't. Afghanistan was invaded because the US thought it was harbouring terrorism (under the pretense of destroying Taliban). Israel invaded Lebanon because Hezbollah were trying to expel the IDF from Southern Lebanon (which Israel had occupancy of since 1982). Israel held the Lebanese government responsible, and so bombed the fuck out of it.
You're talking about Jews like they were some collective mind.
Actually IMO they are a collective mind. The Jewish community is very tight-knit as I'm sure you are aware of, and maybe because of their small numbers they tend to act as one. Most Jewish people are perfectly peaceful, but they will mostly always support the existence of Israel. There are small factions of anti-Zionist Jews, but they are in the minority by far.
Israel may not be as powerful as the US nevertheless they are still a powerful country with something to offer.
What exactly? The IDF? A force that would no doubt be much smaller than it is if it weren't for all the unnecessary wars it causes? Israel is the problem, no the solution.
You want a list of bastardly things the UK has done?
You do not need to tell me. I already hate this country's foreign policy and colonial past without you telling me the myriad of atrocities I might not have heard of.
So in persuit of minimizing enemies you get rid of your allies.
Tell me, is it really so stupid an idea? A country with no enemies fights no wars. However, a country who supports illegal and morally-wrong wars has many enemies. You are saying there's no place in the world for the Switzerlands or the Costa Ricas? I can compare it to a school system. The bully has many allies who are secretly scared of it. But if all the bullies friends decided to take the right path and distance themselves, the bully is powerless.
Do you seriously believe that if the US and UK would stop funding, directly or indirectly, certain sides in conflicts, all conflicts would magically solve? No, but the terrorists would stop attacking us. Look at Spain - they supported the illegal invasion of Iraq and paid for it in Madrid. The new leader pulls out of Iraq and the terrorism stops. Funny that.
Israel invaded Lebanon because Hezbollah were trying to expel the IDF from Southern Lebanon
Hezbollah started this conflict with an attack on Israel. That isn't an attempt to expel IDF forces, that's an act of agression designed to start a fight because they know they can win a prolonged ground war.
Israel held the Lebanese government responsible, and so bombed the fuck out of it.
Precisely the same situation as the Taliban in Afghanistan. Why hadn't the Lebanese government put a stop to Hezbollahs actions?
Or are terrorist attacks on Israel justified because you hate Jews?
Otherwise, I can't see how you could defend Hezbollah's actions. The percentage of the populations over 65 in that region is pretty low. Nobody is fighting the 1948 war anymore, regardless of the excuses. The 'validity' of Israel is irrelevant. Why was the IDF in southern Lebanon? Because there was a dangerous enemy there, as recently quite blatantly demonstrated. That's entirely pragmatic.
Israel may not be as powerful as the US nevertheless they are still a powerful country with something to offer.
What exactly?
I've already fucking covered that, read up a couple of posts.
You do not need to tell me. I already hate this country's foreign policy and colonial past without you telling me the myriad of atrocities I might not have heard of.
Right. None of that stuff is particularly nice, and every country on the planet has had its own little atrocities. For Israel to be abandoned over something as relatively minor as the current conflict would be hypocrisy.
You are saying there's no place in the world for the Switzerlands or the Costa Ricas?
Switzerland is a member of the EAP branch of NATO, and no doubt a number alliances. Their military expendature is in the billions of euros. They have a treaty that makes them responsible for the defence of liechtenstein. Don't confuse neutrality with isolationist fuckwitism.
Costa Rica, similarly, is a member of the IACHR and UPEACE, and would be defended by neighbour countries and retains an armed force regardless. That's not pacifism, it's an inability to do anything. The army was abolished for political reasons.
Now, if the US were to abandon its armed forces, North Korea would wet its pants. So that's an impractical argument presuming you actually meant something by mentioning Costa Rica and didn't just want a second example and couldn't think of anything better.
Tell me, is it really so stupid an idea? A country with no enemies fights no wars.
A country with no allies stunts its own economic growth and quality of life, and leaves itself open to predation by expansionist nations.
The new leader pulls out of Iraq and the terrorism stops. Funny that.
Yeah appeasement worked out really great for Poland. Just because something works for Spain doesn't mean it's practical for anyone else. They never a major player. The grudge against the West dates back to the Cold War: it's not something you can just switch off.
Hezbollah started this conflict with an attack on Israel.
This conflict has been going on for decades, this is just the latest flare up of it. The real starter of the war was Israel with its occupancy of Southern Lebanon.
I've already fucking covered that, read up a couple of posts.
From before:
Israel may not be as powerful as the US nevertheless they are still a powerful country with something to offer.
You didn't actually cover it, merely said that it was "something". Lord knows what this something is, but if you said it *must* be important.
Or are terrorist attacks on Israel justified because you hate Jews?
From me before:
While I'm not saying Hezbollah have the right method in what it is doing...
I never said terrorist attacks were justified.
Don't confuse neutrality with isolationist fuckwitism.
I am not doing. I am not against defence forces, and armies sustained only for protecting your country. I am against needless wars fought over the other side of the world in the name of countering terrorism. Can you not see? Or have you swallowed the bullshit as well Radix?
And Radix; you seem to imply that I have some kind of prejudice against Jews. This is not the case. I simply question the valdity of Israel, and question our reasons for supporting it, regardless of any harm which has, and will, come to our own countries.
Yeah, appeasement worked out really great for Poland
We are in no danger of being invaded by these countries. Terrorist attacks are happening because of our own actions in the area. Muslims have every right to feel angry at the West. However, blowing up people is never right, it's just that people are getting so desperate that they feel it is the only option.
I think what Radix means by the difference between neutrality and "isolationist fuckwitism" (lol), is that military neutrality merely means you won't support wars with equipment or manpower. However, neutral countries have no obligation to, and do not, cut ties with countries just because they are in military conflicts. So actually, you don't want to be like Switzerland either.
*sigh* I just spent a few minutes writing a detailed answer/argument, but just realized Deadguy has a point. None of us will change our opinion in this matter, because we are all so convinced we are right. Blah. Let's invite Hezbollah and the top brass of the Jewish conspiracy to the next Click Convention, and there will be no more war!
The real starter of the war was Israel with its occupancy of Southern Lebanon.
Semantics. Sure there's history. The cause of the current armed conflict was Hezbollah provocation.
You didn't actually cover it
Sigh:
They're a relatively wealthy nation with the strongest military in the region, and are in an invaluable tactical position. Not to mention intelligence and counter-terrorism.
I never said terrorist attacks were justified.
So how can you claim a counter-terrorist action is so heinous that we should cut ties with Israel?
And Radix; you seem to imply that I have some kind of prejudice against Jews. This is not the case. I simply question the valdity of Israel, and question our reasons for supporting it, regardless of any harm which has, and will, come to our own countries.
And you ignore the hypocricy in that.
Additionally you contradict yourself:
We are in no danger of being invaded by these countries. Terrorist attacks are happening because of our own actions in the area.
So you say we have nothing to fear (which is true, the southern Lebanese combatants are dirt-poor guerillas), and that we have already earned the ire of these terrorists.
So what, then, are we to benefit from abandoning Israel? Israel, whose intelligence is valuable in the surveillance of these terrorist groups that we've already pissed off?
Muslims have every right to feel angry at the West. However, blowing up people is never right, it's just that people are getting so desperate that they feel it is the only option.
This makes utterly no sense. And I think you'll find that the majority of muslims don't have any burning desire to blow shit up. The militant extremist few are carrying grudges going back to the cold war, coupled with some bizarre religious bullshit justifications for jihad.
I am against needless wars fought over the other side of the world in the name of countering terrorism.
And I'm more in favour of global stability as opposed to severing all ties and covering our collective ears and humming. There is a BIG BIG DIFFERENCE between America's illegal imperialist invasions and Israel crossing its border to respond to attacks on its own soil.
It's not "counter-terrorist action", it's continued occupation of Southern Lebanon. The wish of Hizbollah is to rid this part of their own country of armed forces.
And you ignore the hypocricy in that.
Unlike most people, I do not consider Israel to be the only place where Jews can live. In fact, there are plenty of Jews that actually hold that point of view, but as I said before, they are the minority. The area is a religious place for Muslim, Christian and Jew alike - but the Israelis seem to believe that it is theirs only. What I would really like to see is a non-religiously affiliated state that caters for Jew as well as Muslim as well as Christian. At the moment, Israel is under Jewish law, despite the fact there is a sizeable minority of Palestinians in it (who were there before the West kicked them out to house the Jews).
So what, then, are we to benefit from abandoning Israel?
Is peace good enough for you?
And I think you'll find that the majority of muslims don't have any burning desire to blow shit up.
Once again, your presumptions are like a coiled spring. A minority of Muslims are disillusioned (sp?) with the West, for the crimes committed to their brothers, the Palestinians. Over the years, the Palestinians have seen their share of their homeland decrease and descrease. They no longer have any part of Jerusalem, due to Israeli invasion and subsequent annexion. They can only live as communities in tiny, poor parts of Israel, where they cannot even live by their own laws. This is the reason why some Muslims want to blow shit up.
Sick! Wer'e all people!
What does it matter actually if I'm black, Arabian, Frence ,Israelite or so?
Wer'e people!!! What does it matters who are they?!? I don't care!!!
Several people that are called goverments, terror organisers, and soldiers got abit mad, why should nations suffer for?!? What give noodle? Your'e first of all a human!
All of you, are at first Human... I don't care... Color & nation seeing was for making jokes at first purpose, or for a king's control, but slided far more... Wer'e humans!
The original purpose of the Jewish was to be world defenders and peace bringer.
Consider this crazy "Nation" as crew of white bombermen defending the other colored bombermen people... Like in Bomberman 94'... And I, like many other Jewish didn't wanted to take the job! It's just significant meaning... Jewish people at first were being to protect the world with their prayers, that's all... Otherwise, wer'e all human, and all nations are same... So one got a praying book that does strange things...!
Come on, let's klik and play as we always do, wer'e good in it. To admit, I don't really want to border people. Fuck with national devide... If I could had arabian gal for a night, and God was pleased by that, I would take the option.
Beside, admit it... All these wars are just for getting a good fuck.
Isn't it for feeling good? Wer'e all children! Wer'e small toys on a playfield!
Since when they sent us killing each other for no reason? People should take living as a play! What happended to the Adventure Island living style? I feel more like that Islander: Wonderboy than being an Israelite...
Right! Because religion was made to free you, and for now, it locks and cage the people in a prison of narrow thinking... Religion was only made to be a game, and by the years it was turned on to be a stricting rule system that brings wars, depress and distruction... On the books I read about bibble it often claimed that many of the original terms lost their true meaning so we left with bunch of un-defined sentences...
The ancients knew the bibble well to explain what it holds, so wars could keep into none... Today, what we think is not obiously the truth... Imagin that world was a big playfield in it's original perpose, but some mean guys decided to ruin for the other players, and told them it's a fight for a life of a nation, also as psychology was invented to claim terms of hyperactivity, delousions, etc... Also pagan beliefs, that cage you to work your life for a "fatal-furry" deity with overwhelming demands...
I can tell you... It's be good and play... Wer'e all toys. Our deity is nice as a big yellow smiley, and all he wants is our good, so lets forget it... If the worship work just makes a person upset and warful, I'm sure that God will tell that person to screw with it, and go have fun at the Videogame arcades... Love & Peace are the most improtant... Why are we sucrufrice lambs? Why do we kill God's children? What is it for? Aren't we do it for piece? What gives? Today we got PS2, We got a Revolution, We got websites like this, It's for a play... I almost sure that God doesn't really matters if you pray every day, and go to church to please him... He care about you, being happy and lovable... A good match at your XBox in hallo, when your'e happy and joyful is much more meaningful for God, than sucrefricing lambs and fighting the Godly wars frownly...
God wants your <3... That's all!
Make peace... I don't care who you are... Just be happy!
"and by the years it was turned on to be a stricting rule system that brings wars, depress and distruction"
Au contraire, that's exactly what religion was made for. To repress people, to keep them in a cage locked with guilt.
And it's impossible to know whether there is a God or not, and even if there were, you couldn't guarantee he wants your heart.
the world's perspective is that everyone is equal, and that there should be peace between us. Doesn't it seem stupid to have a religion that would deal in hurting others when almost everyone else agrees you should act with peace to others? why that may or may not be true, it doesnt matter. its disagreement between to religious groups that caused this war, not neccesarily religion itself. even though religion often causes disagreement.
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Ducks roxxorz yez no??--
Edited by the Author.
