I know many people took little notice to the thread above, mostly because people hadn't even heard of the show it was based upon, but the maker of the fan-game has recently recieved some exceptionally bad news. It would appear that the representatives of the owners of the show have issued a cease and decist write to Piers Bell (the game's creator) and told him he must stop making this game.
This is an outrage! Typical short-sighted organisations trying to crush the little guy doing nothing but good for their own products! Please, can all the great game lovers on this site do me (and Piers) a small favour and write a very small e-mail to the idiots responsible for this travesty conveying disgust at their demand? The games website link is below and all of the details of the demand, as well as the e-mail addresses of the poeple involved, are included on the link.
I'm not expecting an essay of anything like that but many peoples voices might get these fools to change their mind! Please help!!
I'd like to thank Mark an awful lot for giving these corporate cretins a right load of stick by email.
Fair Use is something that is decided on a case by case basis.
In my opinion fan games (of TV series at least) do qualify as fair use as they pass the 4 main tests for fair use as follows:
1. They don't generate any profit
2. They are for personal use only
3. They use only the amount of copyrighted work necessary to complete the stated goals of the project
4. They don't cause any loss of revenue to the original copyright holders (and probably serve as free advertising anyhow).
When it happens to be a fan-game of an original game these points are harder to justify but provided the above criteria are met - the usage can be strongly argued to be fair.
Hello Crash All the same, more pressure = less likely chance that this would ever have to be decided via courts or successful threats. Let's make ourselves heard!
Frankly I would completely ignore it. Send a long list of links to them of other fangames and fangame sites with the short explanation that no legal action has ever been successful against them. Then stop responding to the e-mails entirely.
I don't beleive they can sue him as long as he doesn't try to sell the game. Sueing him definitely is wrong. How is it different than anyother fan game? The Terminator 3 fangame you're working on, it's no different, and it shouldn't be.
to be perfectly honest, unless you leave a paper trail to your doorstep, its impossible for them to take legal action against you. What do they say, some anonymous person on the internet is creating a fan game about their show? What have they got beyond your email? And even then, they can't even prove you're working on it. What can they do, have the cops take your computer in as evidence?
Just don't tie it to personal information, and then ignore anything anyones 'lawyer' says.
You're quite right - Unless it were a full-on criminal matter no company would supply them with my address - my ISP isn't even hosting the files in question.
There's not a lot they can do - but even so I was absolutely distraught on Friday when this email first hit and after I rang them to find out what the problem was.
I still think that literally one or two emails like Mark's will go a long way to giving them a sore nose over this and reminding them that they don't want to take this any further.
Ugh, I'm tired of stuff like this happening. Just take the fan game down. Put it on a torrent or something. Then once the company goes bankrupt (which is usually less than 5 years after they attack loyal customers), put the game back up.
A lot of incredibly stupid people spend a lot of time and money attacking the little people who actually helps them. You'd be surprised how far they're willing to chase you just because of ego.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
I shall bombard them with emails citing the Fair Use law later this evening. It's daft what they're doing. Boo hoo, poor f***ing mr Go Nagai. Certainly living up to the first 5 characters of his name.
Originally Posted by Wiiman I don't beleive they can sue him as long as he doesn't try to sell the game. Sueing him definitely is wrong. How is it different than anyother fan game?
Maybe when the fan game starts looking better than the original people start to get mad.
Big case in point: The 3d Chrono Trigger project that Square put the stop to a few years ago. Such a shame..
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But of course the Chrono trigger game would have taken sales away from the real game had Square enix decided to re-release it. So thats probably lawful.
Thanks very much for all the support guys - the game is NOT stopping - I just released a new version at 2:30 this morning (which kinda sticks 2 fingers up at them).
I know a good couple of people have sent them complaints and what not - I think just one or two more should tip the balance.
I said to someone earlier today that the only way that site was going down was if the datacentre was hit by a large missile.
The ideas about not actually hosting the game file itself are great - it's legal to host torrent files nomatter the content (never mind the fact that our files aren't illegal). Even then you can upload it to as many freeware download sites as you feel like. That'd keep 'em busy sending takedown notices to everyone and their dog.
The awesome thing is that my hosting is given to me and owned by a sort of cool benefactor of ours. His reaction to the news was basically to tell them to sod off.
I think that may have been the reason. The owner of the Star Fleet site SFXB is slightly on the inside track with the distributors and seems to think the Japanese thought we were selling a commercial game over here in the UK.
Either way they've been unreasonable - either by not doing their homework or by ... just being unreasonable.
So I want to thank everyone again for stinging these guys with emails. It's good to remind companies that we don't have to bend over just 'cos they tell us to. They rely on us, not the other way around.
If anyone else has fired them emails - drop me a line. I might not be able to afford to buy you each a crate of beer but I'll make sure you're in the credits for the next version (whenever that will be).
No, they were NOT being unreasonable. IF you were selling the game, they very well would have had a case, because you would have owed them a licensing fee. That's not unreasonable at all.
It is fully within their rights to request the takedown, and I'm rather taken aback at the reactions from the community. Especially considering the Fair Use clause everyone is falling back on is an AMERICAN law. The show is Japanese in origin and the specific version that this game is based on is from the UK. The page is also hosted by a UK company. While I am unsure of the specifics of the UK version of the law, there are still the Japanese laws regarding this issue to consider.
While I'm sure you guys feel that flooding these person's email boxes with support for the game will help your position, from a number of reactions I've read from the official site, I can only assume that a good portion of these emails are poorly written and abusive towards the IP owners. This is NOT the way to get things done, and would reflect rather poorly on the creator of the game. Also putting "two fingers up" at the people who own the IP is a very poor and juvenile action.
Well if you look at it from the Law's point of view, yes it's perfectly fine to demand whatever you want when it's your own IP. Especially so when money comes into it.
But speaking morally, throwing your weight around when it comes to fangames will only make you look like a dick. Thus the reaction from the community.
I don't see Sega and Nintendo trying to close down Mario fangames galaxy or Sonic fangames headquarters,
so it's not like it's expected.
Originally Posted by AndyUK Well if you look at it from the Law's point of view, yes it's perfectly fine to demand whatever you want when it's your own IP. Especially so when money comes into it.
But speaking morally, throwing your weight around when it comes to fangames will only make you look like a dick. Thus the reaction from the community.
I don't see Sega and Nintendo trying to close down Mario fangames galaxy or Sonic fangames headquarters,
so it's not like it's expected.
Not anymore anyway (Nintendo). Any Nintendo fangame that even got a sliver of internet fame used to get shut down.
But speaking of morality, what's more moral? Asking someone to take down a game based on your IP, or being a flippant prick when someone asks you to take down something you don't own? We're not talking about some company wanting to take it down. The CREATOR of the show himself is the one who wants it taken down. We're still unsure of his reasons though, he could just be overly protective of his creation, or he could be under the belief that the game is for-profit. There is a language barrier complicating things here. More information would definitely help. But I still think the manner that the creator of the game dealt with this is exceedingly poor and will only hurt him (and his game) in the long run.
yeah it's stupid and also highly disrespectful to gather a huge army to spam angry messages to someone because they're trying to protect their ip.
But i also think it's unfair to stop allowing fans do what fans do. Now things like piracy are worth stopping, but fangames? freeware fangames at that? surely it will only hurt the owners reputation.
Oh I'm not saying it won't damage their reputation. Encouraging the fans to make their own content (within limits) has help lots of frachises, specifically the two major Star franchises. Paramount in particular has a fantastic relationship with the trek fans, even to the point where Paramount has utilized some of the sets fans have made for their own shows in their official productions and in return helped those fan show creators get in contact with actors/writers to help with the fan productions.
What bothers me about this whole thing is that the creator of the game seem to feel a sense of entitlement to the IP, and instead of trying to work with the owners of the IP, has instead chosen to decry themselves as persecuted and battle back in such a way that they undermine their whole argument (we help people get interested in the show).
I would just like to point out to the poster Knudde - that Fair Use Law is part of UK law right now and in a number of other countries. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about right from the start.
I feel no ownership of the IP in question however I do feel that I have earned the right to my game, having written it over the course of over 6 years as opposed to the distributors who have done nothing whatsoever in comparison.
I have offered to work in partnership with the distributors as can be read from my email.
I feel understandably hurt by the fact that I have been NEEDLESSLY threatened with legal action over this.
Your points made about money and revenue here are irrelevant as I have never received a penny or as much as been bought a drink for my work on X-Bomber.
Calling me a prick doesn't make me inclined to listen to your argument - especially when it is spurious and full of inaccuracies.
Of course they were being unreasonable to threaten me with legal action when no profit is being made here. You have completely missed the point.
If you're not willing to help then I would simply ask that you please leave this topic well alone.
I would question how well or graciously Knudde would react to actually being threatened with legal action and how he would feel in my position. It's all very well to decry me when you have absolutely no idea or personal concept of the background to this or to the situation I've been placed in.
Even the UK distributors seem to have realised that they've made a mistake and are preparing to talk to Enoki about their apparent mistake. Therefore your opinion seems rather irrelevant.
no offense but no. his argument stands. you have dealt with it right AND wrong. emailing them back is the right thing to do, to settle the matter. asking the members of multiple forums to spam everyone affiliated with the takedown request is wrong. shab's (knudde) point is that they have the RIGHT, even as your game is freeware, to make the request. it is youre responsibility to prove it falls under the fair use law either to them or by the use of law/lawyers.
also your argument that its taken 6 years of your life to produce is not valid. its like saying it took 6 years to make a virus so its only fiar that you get to use it. they might be afraid of the effects your game might cause assuming theyre releasing the show on dvd? so your time means nothing.
That analogy is ridiculous - viruses and fan-games are NOTHING alike.
I don't think this qualifies as spamming as the subject pertains directly to the companies in question.
Please choose your comparisons more carefully.
I agree that it is their right in law to make me defend the use of their IP in my game but I don't really think it necessary or just, when it's so obviously not causing anyone any harm.
viruses harm things. your game, IN THIS CASE!, may be seen as something that may harm them in some way shape or form.
asking members of multiple forums to flood several peoples inboxes with negative mail is spam.
get over yourself. lifes not fair. go talk to ashley who's building construct about being accused by the legal system. this community knows full well about legal issues and accusations. we just went through it passively if not personally. we dont need it right now.
You don't need it? How much do you think I need this problem? Like a hole in the head, let me tell you. If you feel you don't need the irritation then simply leave this matter well alone. Having a go at me won't solve anything.
Of course life's not fair - what irritates me is people who just shrug their shoulders and are content to leave it that way.
I don't know anything about Construct but I get the feeling that if everyone were like you, that project wouldn't have even started.
Maybe irrelevant, but I doubt that Construct would have failed to start. I don't think Scirra told everyone they were going to make Construct before they started.
Originally Posted by Crash I would just like to point out to the poster Knudde - that Fair Use Law is part of UK law right now and in a number of other countries. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about right from the start.
I feel no ownership of the IP in question however I do feel that I have earned the right to my game, having written it over the course of over 6 years as opposed to the distributors who have done nothing whatsoever in comparison.
I have offered to work in partnership with the distributors as can be read from my email.
I feel understandably hurt by the fact that I have been NEEDLESSLY threatened with legal action over this.
Your points made about money and revenue here are irrelevant as I have never received a penny or as much as been bought a drink for my work on X-Bomber.
Calling me a prick doesn't make me inclined to listen to your argument - especially when it is spurious and full of inaccuracies.
Of course they were being unreasonable to threaten me with legal action when no profit is being made here. You have completely missed the point.
If you're not willing to help then I would simply ask that you please leave this topic well alone.
I would question how well or graciously Knudde would react to actually being threatened with legal action and how he would feel in my position. It's all very well to decry me when you have absolutely no idea or personal concept of the background to this or to the situation I've been placed in.
Even the UK distributors seem to have realised that they've made a mistake and are preparing to talk to Enoki about their apparent mistake. Therefore your opinion seems rather irrelevant.
Edited by the Author.
If you read my post, I specifically said that I am unsure of how the UK law is worded, but the quotes people were throwing around were from the American law. You would have also noticed that I never said anything about you making money, only that they had every right to demand a lisensing fee if you were making money in a hypothetical situation. I also said that it was possible that they thought you were indeed making money from the game, which would have been the reason you got the threats. I know your game is freeware and always has been.
My flippant prick comment was specifically aimed at the latest version you uploaded in which you stated "This release pretty much sticks two fingers up at the takedown request I received from Fabulous Films whose Star Fleet DVDs we've even been advertising for them." I still believe this to be a poor reaction, damaging to your position, and your comment about how you have "earned the right" to your game while the distributors have done nothing only furthered my opinion that you feel a sense of entitlement to the IP. No one is questioning that the game is yours, but the IP it contains is not.
As for your statement regarding being threatened with legal action, I was actually very recently from the publishers of C.O.R.E. for the DS regarding a game I have been working on for a number of years called The Core (I had mocked up a DS screenshot of the game). I explained to them that my game was a freeware pet project that I had been working on for a few years and was unrelated to their project. They apologized for the error and that was the end of the issue. No call to arms, no forum posts.
While the legal threats were "needless" it was perfectly within their rights to do so. I believe that creators should have the rights to their creations. It may be "unreasonable" for them to ask for you to take it down, but it's their right to do so.
And while you may think I was not willing to help, I submitted this email to both Mr. Starks and Mr. Enoki
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Hello Mr. Enoki,
I am writing this letter in regards to the recent Cease & Desist that was sent to the fan game X-Bomber. I am sure you have been assaulted with poorly written, even abusive emails from the supporters of this project. I feel I must apologize on behalf of those people. I fully support your right to protect your Intellectual Property, however I do believe there was a misunderstanding about this project.
The game in question is a fan creation, provided free of charge. No profit will be generated, and to a further extent, no money will be generated at all from this game. For lack of a better term, this is a labor of love for the author; a person who is obviously a fan of the show. It is similar in context to a piece of fan art.
I suggest you look into the various Star Trek fan productions that have cropped up over the years; Paramount has come to realize that fan productions can actually strengthen the brand name. Their only requirements for such productions is that none of the original video material is used in these productions, however they do allow fans to use various sound effects in their productions.
Just to reiterate, I support your position; you have every right to request the takedown.
construct is the rising rival free opensource project to clickteams software. there was a big legal dispute, etc etc, spies lies lawyers, all hell broke loose. as such many people hated construct scirra and ashley. for reasons that were unfounded. it was just unneeded drama.
i dont mean we dont need your legal issue specifically. i mean we dont need the drama. you can deal with it in a quieter fashion instead of going to forums and requesting help in the form of them spamming emails and getting everyone riled up.
i dont mean leave well enough alone and be content. life isnt fair. man up and deal with it.
and construct was a quiet project that got big. it would have started no matter what. they dealt with it properly and now its here to stay and grow, and is becoming quite the game making software.
all im saying is you arent exactly going about this entirely the right way.
Nice letter, Shab . Guys, that's how a complaint letter should be written. Without excess emotion, with facts, and supporting your point without outright denying the other party's rights. Spamming them and swearing at them just makes things worse.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Well I do appreciate your elaborating on previous posts before and to a great extent I do agree.
It's just that they've had so many years to ask me to take this down. - It came as a horrible shock and I did feel quite badly about it. I don't necessarily apologise for being emotional about my project - I don't make releases very often - I prefer to simply plough-on as best I can...
I would just say that -that- and the complete fear this put into me (as I don't want to lose this project and yet I started out fearing that I might be sued into bankruptcy over this last Friday) (don't laugh, I'm being serious) cumulated into that post on the website that was mostly designed to release some amount of steam. It is a game site after all, not the BBC I suppose. It was only meant to be taken as a joke and to underline that I don't plan on capitulating lightly. I've just been trying to make a rubbish situation seem slightly less grim. I find being light-hearted helps a lot, I wasn't trying to insult anyone. I think you might have got the wrong inference from it.
I think you're right. I do feel ownership to my game - a lot of effort has gone in. I love Star Fleet and those guys are right to be able to demand what they like. It's not their IP that I'm clawing at - it's just a shame that mine's got mixed up with it, in there as well. You're right the ownership's there - it just applies to my work, not theirs. It's a fine line, I know. I just thought it ironic that they were asking me to take down a site that was advertising their stuff for them basically. That's all I meant. It's a bit much to call me a prick over it.
It was meant to re-invigorate the series not bring it down like people seem to have been suggesting and just be a really good premise for a game at the same time.
Like I said before I really hope a happy compromise can be reached. Like I said I was hoping the IP owners would be proud of the game rather than try to tear it down.
At the end of the day - they can't really hope to take this matter to court as it will cost them a fortune and they will collect no revenue - and that's provided that they still want to take it down after learning the full facts.
I just want to say that I'm not a complete bastard or a prick but personal issues piled up on me last week and out of feeling quite cornered I've tried to use all the means at my disposal to save my project. The other fans of StarFleet have been very understanding of this as they have been put in the same position now and in the past. I just hope you can be as understanding yourselves cos I have found this seriously difficult.
I do completely agree and planned to send a more conciliatory email to Enoki but felt it best to keep my mouth shut for the moment and hope for the problem to go away. I would just point out that although I am very, very grateful to Mark for starting this thread - I honestly didn't put him up to it.
In way of spamming: all I have been asking is for people to appeal against Enoki's decision and try to bear witness that I'm not trying to do them any damage. I am honestly quite sure that no-one has abused or sworn at them in trying to back me up. I'm really very positive that that hasn't happened. That's not what I wanted myself and I've tried to ask people who I know would be able to support me properly. I know I haven't insulted them myself. - I just think people have been bemused by their attitude. There is a difference there and I think you may have misunderstood what I've asked people to do.
I don't need to "man-up". I'm fine the way I am. - I'm just trying to fix something that I think is crazy.
Now that I'm not as absolutely terrified about the whole thing as I was, I plan on conducting this thing more calmly. I'm very sorry to hear you've had similar difficulties yourselves. This sort of thing is just dire.
Thanks very much for sticking up for me in a great letter. (I really hope the first paragraph doesn't apply) (this is the first time I've had to do anything like this). All the other ones I've seen have been firm but very measured.
I figured I'd throw that first part in there as the letter was intended for Mr. Enoki, and being proper and apologetic is almost a standard for normal japanese business letters when dealing with a "controversy".
No problem man, I'm glad we've come to realize each others points of view. I hope that you can work something out with the creators and distributors.
I sent a reasonable response to this matter to all five of the e-mail adresses stated upon your website, Crash; of which suitably helped your case fairly.
If you'd like for me to give you the exact e-mail, just say so. I hope that everything comes out alright.
I started this thread because i had been in contact with Crash for a few monhs now. I stumbled upon his game when trawling through Wikipedia many weeks back for articles on shows i vaguely remembered from my youth. Star Fleet was a show i'd watch every Saturday afternoon before visiting my nan. It was a show that stuck out for me because i'd never seen anything like it since and is one of my earliest memories. I contacted Crash (Piers Bell) because i admired his dedication to the show and the care he'd put into his game.
I don't believe in theft of IP's. If someone stole/made money from my own IP without my consent i'd be pretty p****d! And though i disagree quite regularly with most business's operating in 'rip-off Britain', i do believe they have a right to charge what-ever they want in a competitive market. However, as a customer and a consumer, it is my right to chose whether i want to pay what they want to charge. Often i have gone without things i've wanted due to (what i've believed to be) excessive profiteering - Rock Band and it's high price-point being one recent example.
For me, the greatest travesty here is not that Crash wants to fight the owners of Star Fleet/X-Bomber (even though it is those owners who fired the first shots with their cease and decist requests), it is the fact that Mr. Enoki et al have seemingly gone in without compromise and without doing their homework. Not only that, they have done nothing to keep the Star Fleet franchise going in this country themselves. That to me is more of a crime!
For the record, my ideal out-come would be for Mr. Enoki and the other Star Fleet/X-Bomber owners to work with Crash in using this game to further the marketing of Star Fleet in the UK. Links to official web-sites, investment or more advertising for the up-coming DVD box-set within the game and on the website would benefit Crash, the brand and the fans more than anything else.
Thank you guys for all your efforts. You've all been great.
I understand that Enoki and Co have got really wound-up by the emails they've received. I don't think there's any harm in the fact that they've been rattled just a little. I don't think it's done any damage. The plan now is to just sit tight and see what happens. There's gonna be a meeting sometime this week between Fabulous Films (UK) and Enoki Films (US) to decide what they're gonna do about X-Bomber The Game.
Take care guys, keep your fingers crossed that this time next week (or whenever) X-Bomber isn't just another listing on Isohunt.
Originally Posted by Crash I understand that Enoki and Co have got really wound-up by the emails they've received. I don't think there's any harm in the fact that they've been rattled just a little. I don't think it's done any damage.
If I were getting spammed by outraged fans over something like this, then I would either respond in kind, or feel compelled to actually pursue legal action. What you've done is no better than a site selling registered information to spambots, aside from that you didn't sell his info.
Well your idea of spam and mine are obviously very different.
What I've asked people to do is send Enoki and co emails that pertain directly to the recipient due to a process that the recipients themselves have started.
There's nothing legal to pursue here and that's simply what we've been trying to tell them.
I've read all the emails that have been copied to me and every one that I've seen has been fantastic. There may be some that have shown outrage that I haven't seen (and I even find that fair enough) but all the ones I've read have been very measured, concerned and well-written.
I don't think they have the option of responding in kind to their potential customers - that would simply get published on xbomber.co.uk as well, which would be contrary to their interests.
They hit us first, we hit back (pretty convincingly). They complained. I put a stop to it and took the addresses and emails down.
I think that shows a strong but measured and understandable response and it shows good will in me removing the information once they complained (not even directly to me in point of fact) on the basis that I hoped our points and objections had been received, understood and taken on-board.
I'm sorry you feel the way you do - I couldn't think of a better way to save my game.
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All the same, more pressure = less likely chance that this would ever have to be decided via courts or successful threats. Let's make ourselves heard!
Edited by the Author.
. Guys, that's how a complaint letter should be written. Without excess emotion, with facts, and supporting your point without outright denying the other party's rights. Spamming them and swearing at them just makes things worse.
