It's pretty slow here now. I mean, really. Let's talk about this. Even I notice it and I wasn't really using this site during its peak in 2004/5. What do you guys think went wrong?
Not enough new MMF users? People using GameMaker instead? TDC needs a re-design? Clickteam needs to advertise more?
This place just isn't as fun any more. It used to be about a bunch of people having fun making games. Now it's about ignorance and nitpicking. This started in 2007 when people began using words like "meh" in download comments. I don't see any reason to discuss gamemaking here now and hardly see a reason to post my games. Maybe we just need a new community site (like we had a few of in the "golden age"). A site based on constructive gamemaking, kind of like what Gamebuilder could have been.
The original TGF and MMF 1.5 were easy to warez. MMF2 isn't. There's just no way for kids aged 14/15 to obtain MMF anymore, and no-one wants to make a game without using the latest / most powerful tools, because it would suck and be a waste of effort. I know what I just said is against the rules, but that's my theory to why there aren't any new users. A re-design / nicer members won't do anything.
Clickteam needs to lower prices, but there's really no incentive for them to, since they're doing business just fine, I assume... Sooo, I 'unno what we can do.
For the record, I bought MMF1.5 off Amazon / never used MMF2 apart from the demos, kthx.
Edited by markno2
Discarded pizza boxes are an indispensable source of cheese.
I think Hayo hit the nail on the head, the community here for me is just not as fun anymore due to the non constructive nature. I left from klik about 4 years ago when all this just started happening - why exactly did Phizzy get banned? It seemed like a lynch mob was brewing for him, just wondering if he got banned for a real offence or if admins got pressured into it.
Nim I have also been thinking of making a post like this, it is very noticeable, especially after being out of klik for as long as I have.
Originally Posted by Hayo kind of like what Gamebuilder could have been.
You talk about us like we are dead Hayo LOL
He's still bitter 5 months on because his graphics weren't used to make Klik Academy 2. It's okay, Im sure he'll get over it by the time he's 50 or something.
i think when we see a few good top notch games designed by MMF then we will see more people, when one person makes a game which shocks everyone, you will be suprised how quick people will join the community
A few of these ideas seem plausible to me. It may be a combination of factors.
I started to think of how we could encourage being more constructive, but then I realized that it's not likely that any new rating or comment system would fix it. If it needs to be more constructive, it's up to the members to make it so. Perhaps I'm crazy, but I thought this was already improving here.
TDC could probably use a facelift. But that's all it would be. The effect would quickly wear off, since the core of what makes it a community is already here.
MMF2 being too expensive/not having enough users seems to be a possible and logical contributing issue.
Truthfully, I think part of it is that some new people are discouraged from visiting here because they're told about drama and stupidity. And perhaps that's not entirely unfounded... As it would be with any community site. Like Alastair said, a lot of the "old" generation have left for life stuff or other hobbies.
But then also, it always seems like a new slow whenever spring rolls around (in the northern hemisphere).
Originally Posted by alastair john jack Probably cause most people are getting older and not having as much fun? Everything seems more amazing when your younger. I don't know.
i dont think this is the problem because when you get older you get more experienced and that helps..
I don't think reviving the community has much to do with the quality of games being released. On the contrary, we've had more professional games than ever in the last few years: Knytt, Noitu Love, Chalk, Bonesaw (etc) but this community still feels like a smoldering campfire.
I think it's probably down to a few reasons. I certainly agree with Hayo on the point that the feedback here isn't what it used to be, and the level of general negativity in comments has curiously gone up - although you could argue that the latter has also been noticed on bigger sites like Tigsource.
For me, personally, it's just as Alastair said: when you "outgrow" this site (as in maturity, if that's OK to say), there's nowhere else really to go. The Clickteam forums seem to be quite dry and Tigsource is cliquey. Total Klik (whichever version you remember) had a good community atmosphere where people could equally talk about games and have fun talking about anything else.
Could be that the general barrier to entry to game creation has been broken down with the introduction of xna and stuff. Even the unreal engine is made free now. Not to forgot new competitors like constuct and love. Click products wasn't even that popular back in the days, and could be worse now.
Originally Posted by nim I don't think reviving the community has much to do with the quality of games being released. On the contrary, we've had more professional games than ever in the last few years: Knytt, Noitu Love, Chalk, Bonesaw (etc) but this community still feels like a smoldering campfire.
That might actually be a deterrent, as people may feel discouraged to release game that would be viewed infavourably.
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
I'm not sure I can put my finger on it but I have been visiting less frequently in the past few months and have downloaded almost nothing in that time.
Ive noticed an awful lot of useless throwaway abandonware, engines and small demos. Now it's nice to release this stuff to get some feedback, but actually there isn't much decent feedback anyway. The star rating system encourages a lack of feedback. I'm sure Ive said this before. Also I think this large influx of boring looking downloads seems to be killing off my interest in the site in general. dunno about anyone else.
Luckily this hasn't stopped me using MMF2, I just spend more time making stuff than visiting community sites, lol.
The Community has just disappeared. I joined this site in 2005 after getting TGF 1.5 and found help in every direction I turned. This just doesn't happen anymore. I recently posted a request for help and was told that because I didn't list the extensions I used or provide a download link to them the person in question was not going to help.
This wouldn't have happened in the Community of old and I think it is mainly to do with the way peoples attitudes are different across the age ranges. I consider myself to be one of the "old" generation of users, the release of the new tools such as TGF2 and MMF2 has enabled younger users to learn how to create their games, and with this a new atmosphere has permeated the site. I am not pointing the finger at any one person but if people showed each other a little more respect it would be easier to exist as a community.
I appreciate I am not exactly the most experienced user on the site but I try and help whenever I can. If people just calm down a little and remember how things used to be it would be a lot better.
I don't think there is much can be done with regards to the site and we can't influence Clickteam to reduce their prices (even if the difference in prices between MMF2 and MMF2 Dev is astronomical) so unfortunately we will just have to grin and bear it.
I'm sure someone will have something to say about the points i have made but that will be exactly my point!
Originally Posted by ..::hagar::.. why exactly did Phizzy get banned? It seemed like a lynch mob was brewing for him, just wondering if he got banned for a real offence or if admins got pressured into it.
Yes that's exactly what happened.
There have been multiple occasions where I went out of my way to ask Rikus to let Phizzy make a new account. After gaining permission the accounts were all promptly deleted within a week without warning and without good reason.
The thing is a select few members consistently caused shitstorms over Phizzy's presence on TDC, and that is much worse than anything Phizzy may or may not have done himself. The easiest solution for the Admins is to keep him banned. Sad but true.
Originally Posted by Hayo kind of like what Gamebuilder could have been.
You talk about us like we are dead Hayo LOL
I didn't quite mean that in a bad way. It's just that it isn't much of an alternative to TDC as it is now. And like Adam said I am a bit disappointed we didn't use the ideas we came up with and the graphics we made, it was a lot of work.
"And like Adam said I am a bit disappointed we didn't use the ideas we came up with and the graphics we made, it was a lot of work."
So you had a little hissy fit at me because you wouldnt go to KM or ricky about being upset that your graphics weren't used? I told you I wanted them to be used and did remind the other guys, You expected me to do everything about it without opening your mouth to the other guys, and because I snapped you walked away in a tantrum. Im not the programmer of the site.
First of all they were our graphics. Secondly I never got upset about it, I just wondered why it didn't happen. I don't even care to explain what happened in public, but I blocked you for being manipulative, not because of GB.
Yes, you did get upset. If threatening to not be an admin unless your graphics werent used within a month isn't upset, then what is? How exactly was I manipulating you?
I have to say i think it's a combo of all of the above. Also, we could do with a few more active admins, in my opinion. More guys like OMC who really contribute alot to this site on a very regular basis. Rikus was also a huge contributer, but has other life things going on at the mo so has disappeared temporarily (which is okay, the internet isn't the be all and end all of life!). More active admins would help though, to help be the "face" of TDC!
A site update would be very much welcome though - the site layout is looking tired and old-fashioned somewhat. New skins are not enough.
Also, i think the Arcade section may be slowing the traffic to the main site itself - i know for a fact that work on my Projects has slowed considerably since the Arcade opened! I seem to be trying lots of mini-games so that i can submit more Arcade games, rather than getting on with Space Commander.
The petty squabbling on the forums is also a contributing factor to driving traffic away (and i'm as guilty as most) and this, really, doesn't say to people "come and join us!", more like "join us and we'll slag you off!" - let's get out of this habit and start having our arguements over pm's instead!
Anyhoo, i suspect (just like "Global warming"!) we're making a slight mountain from a fairly large mole-hill, and that this is just a trough in between many peaks!
I do think you were a bit of out of order cussing Hayo Adam. He is more dedicated to helping aspiring game makers than a LOT of others, and that in my mind deserves respect. I also think Hayo is right in keeping these discussions your having non public!
I do think we all need to be more proactive in helping people. I liked the way KA actually had classes rather than just articles, so perhaps a new community site (or the facility to do so on TDC) is needed.
Make sure this discussion stays above the belt, please.
I do like the idea of a new way to cooperate in making new things, a la a classroom. If nothing else, perhaps one of those screencast things could stand in, and schedules shared via the site?
Though i have nothing at the mo to communicate in an article, i've always wondered why people only use words and pictures when publishing articles? A video article (via embedded YouTube link, for example) would be uber-cool
I think it's down to Clickteam and they're non-constructive pricing. TDC was big when TGF was big, and then MMF came out and there was a long period where people who used both were actively using the site. I don't have any figures to back this up, but I reckon the users of MMF2 are nowhere near, in terms of amount, those of MMF1.
Originally Posted by Matt Boothman I think it's down to Clickteam and they're non-constructive pricing. TDC was big when TGF was big, and then MMF came out and there was a long period where people who used both were actively using the site. I don't have any figures to back this up, but I reckon the users of MMF2 are nowhere near, in terms of amount, those of MMF1.
Originally Posted by -Adam- Yes, you did get upset. If threatening to not be an admin unless your graphics werent used within a month isn't upset, then what is? How exactly was I manipulating you?
I never was active as an admin. You asked me to be one, nothing happened, I didn't want to waste my time and did not like how that competition was handled. You know the rest. If you want to talk more just mail me, I don't hate you.
Back on topic, I do agree there could be more cooperation. I don't believe in the classroom idea (Klik Academy was a failure), but more open source examples and doing for the others. Not compete against each other but help each other make great games. And Boothman is right, MMF is too expensive for kids (and for most schools).
Perhaps just co-operation and articles (video articles are a nice idea!) are the best route. Classrooms are a nice idea but as you say ka did collapse.
My school had knp and my parents brought me tgf from toys r us. I think stocking tgf 2 at toy stores and game stores would work wonders.
@Andy: I always thought Phizzy was helpful towards klikers personally, his sense of humour was odd but i think he was a good guy overall. It is sad that he is banned.
I think another problem TDC always had was that half the members just used the forums as a place to mess around instead of doing anything productive, pretty much like phredreeke who hasn't seemingly posted anything since 2007 yet continues to post and make a prat of himself.
And Phredreeke, Ive seen a photograph of you when you were going through the emo phase. Believe me, it gave me great confidence in the way I look
Originally Posted by -Adam- And Phredreeke, Ive seen a photograph of you when you were going through the emo phase. Believe me, it gave me great confidence in the way I look
Just cause your definition of emo is having a girlfriend
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
Man lots of mud throwing going around between members who are actually active on the site.. thats kinda scary.
Truth to be told, yes while things have slowed down they really have turned to a stop the last couple of weeks. I dont really know why, if you look at some of the submissions back in 2003/2004 each game got like 200/300 downloads and lots of great comments. Now you get lucky if 10 people download your game and you get really lucky if you get some good feedback. Now that really worries me. Also back then there were like 4 or 5 active fully visited community sites with tons of admins for each. Damn whats going on with that? Now we only got 2. Also should clickteam worry about that?
It is true that life has taken me away from the site for a while now and thats just the way it is, money needs to be made for the family and this site is just costing money now lol.
However I have been in talks for a redesign of the main skin with spitz and the sad but true name change of the site. The new main skin is more in a lighter white yellowish kinda color and replaces mitch for good with something more game related. Only thing now is to think up of a good font for the letters and the skin is more or so done.
Also a new klikcast in the works but progress is slow. But i dont have any time yet to do any crazy front page news updating.
So yea even with the new flash release things have not really picked up or people are just submitting there games to flash related sites now and dont care anymore about getting feedback. I do think its worth talking about what can we change to get back to the days of old are are we just heading into the sad its only gonna go downhill from here road
Edited by an Administrator
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Actually, I think Flash is part of KNP/TGF/MMF's downfall. Back when clicking was big Flash games were far from as popular as they are now.
Most people would rather play a browser game, than to download a similar game made in klik software (yes, there's vitalize but hardly anyone has that plugin while more or less everybody has flash)
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
i don't know if this applies to here but at least in other places, standards have gone up; a few years ago you could make, quite frankly, a shitty game but people were just fine with it because they couldn't do any better. it was less about who could build the best engine or more complex game and more about having fun doing it
i started using click programs in 2001, which even then was being a little late to the party, but it was wildly popular then. hell i don't think game maker was that huge at the time. then you realize it's been nearly 10 years since then; most people have either completely lost interest or don't have the time to do this anymore.
for the most part you had to "be there" at the time. it's much harder to be a newcomer these days, because what games are released are much closer to being professional quality than they were 10 years ago.
part of the reason may well be pricing, like i've said before, mmf is not cheap by any means and it's unfortunately filled with bugs, workarounds, artificial limitations: it's not very friendly--which is why, in my opinion, a completely fresh start with mmf3 is something to consider
I agree with Ricky. If it weren't for the occasional decent forum thread I probably wouldn't visit here at all. In fact, I'm not sure why I do because I haven't played a game posted on here in years and have never put my own up.
I think it's just nostalgia really. But, for me, the lack of people using MMF2 is the reason behind TDC, and other places', sad demise. Clickteam's decline is inevitably shared with its fan sites.
The quality standard has gone up through Demos, not full game releases.
IMO people are putting the same work into games as they always were, except it changed from quantity to quality, except quality means no full games, just many many demos.
Now, let's think of this for a second : you are a gamer or something like that, you decide you want to make games; you look it up on the internet, one product costs hundreds of dollars, the other costs nothing. which one would you pick? BE HONEST!
Stay on topic Adam, every single post you've made so far in this thread has been either a derail, or an extension to a derail. You've contributed nothing to the discussion thus far. Responding to this will only further prove my point.
As far as TDC's decline, I think it's just suffering from change. Have you ever watched an old TV show and during a change of season, the pace changed so that it could keep going, but the change of pace was too different and you didn't really like the way it was going. You knew it would happen eventually but didn't want it to, either because actors grew to old or the story came to dead ends. I think TDC's growth is comparable to that. At least from my point of view. However I agree with almost everything said so far too. It's all contributing to the problem.
TDC will probably never out right die, but we've fallen into a rut. We've become less of a site of booming creativity, and more of just a gathering place for people with the single interest of kliking, but yet we rarely truly seem to interact off that interest. We just sort of... interact.
Perhaps the site needs to take a few steps back and rather than add features, try to re-arrange the site itself to help encourage kliking itself. Think about it, the downloads, articles, projects, reviews, all of that stuff is just a little text link at the top. Maybe we should have a more intuitive design that encourages exploration of these parts of the site.
Maybe we could pull off something of maybe like an automatic 'featured' bar that displays new games and games with a lower average of feedback, both in the same place. That might help focus attention and encourage people to want to contribute more cause they'll get more attention. And it has to use screenshots, none of this text stuff. The side bar on the far right seems completely useless to me. I never use it.
I didn't really bother with reading this whole thing, but I think it may just be the whole pro-click idea we got going here. It is called the Daily Click and we have a nice big picture of Mitch right there on the top. Maybe just by changing the name and the idea that its just a game making community instead of just click on the first few seconds you look at it would attract more people. My two cents.
No need to instigate even further, Brandon. It's not fair to tell someone that they are proving a point solely by responding to what you say.
Call me stubborn, but I still think the name change is a bad idea. To an outsider, doesn't "Click" mean the noise a mouse button makes? Changing the name just gets rid of a catchy title and arguably the site's history. I guess if you want to wipe the slate clean...
I'm all for our current acceptance of games from any development tool, but expecting TDC to focus on all creation software equally is like expecting a banana to turn into an orange. Or even closer... it would be like inviting teenagers to senior bingo night and expecting them to stay until there are people of all ages in equal amounts coming every night. At least in this incarnation of the site.
I didn't read the whole thing either, since I went to TDC to get a glance before going to class. A lot of it seems to be people blaming each other anyway
I think the community has always been non-constructive. It's been a lot worse, where people were badly flamed for making bad games. Today, people just politely ignore a bad game. "meh" is a lot better than "This game suck0rs! You're a noob! I can make a better game in 2 hours! 0 stars for being a retard!!" Most of those people have moved to TK, and then to TIGSource.
I think TDC's improving slowly, as is the quality of the Click Community. A lot of people have moved on to Construct, and TDC is seen as anti-Construct since that little fight when Ashley donated to TDC. So, many Construct makers are ignoring TDC. Game Maker has always been a competitor to MMF2, but it's always been people moving from GM to MMF, not the other way.
There's also a few moving on to console. I don't really see many good game development communities popping up, which is why there's still a lot on TDC.
I think a lot of people have just grown older and better. I'm moving on to writing operating systems and speech modification tools, and not games anymore. Some old klikers have full time jobs, maybe making games, maybe graphics, and they're just not contributing to the community. There's a few, like steve, who do make great games for a living. They're too busy on their own to actually hang around and chat, but even when steve posts a game here, people just go all "oh, i didn't try it, but i'd like it more if it was free".
There's also more pressure on not releasing a game unless it's really good. I mean, quality has been top notch lately, with games like Duel Toys, and heck, much of the projects, but projects aren't getting finished. And after a certain level, MMF2 actively works against you. It goes against common computer science wisdom. MMF gets more difficult to debug with more code, whereas with C, it's just as easy to debug 200 thousand lines of code as it is to debug 300 thousand. So, everyone's aiming for bigger projects, but never complete.
And as I predicted a few years back, the new game making people aren't moving to MMF2. There's no publicity on it, and a lot of other more cost-efficient game making tools. Nobody's going to fork out a lot of money for MMF2, when say, Construct is superior and GM has a bigger community.
New people go in, old people leave. That's how every community is. It's just that new people aren't entering TDC or Click any more.
So, I guess.. nothing really helps. Facelifts won't do much except help old members.. although the site is very outdated, seeing how we can't even make hyperlinks in posts. The best we can do is be nicer to everyone and make better games. I'd have left this ship a long time back if I wasn't an admin. It's a nice place to hang out, but TDC and Gamebuilder seem more dedicated to stealing each other's customer base rather than encouraging new members to join the community.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Originally Posted by nim I don't think reviving the community has much to do with the quality of games being released. On the contrary, we've had more professional games than ever in the last few years: Knytt, Noitu Love, Chalk, Bonesaw (etc) but this community still feels like a smoldering campfire.
That might actually be a deterrent, as people may feel discouraged to release game that would be viewed infavourably.
Hmm, good point. Perhaps as games like those above are celebrated, the more reluctant some people are to make games for fear of not meeting the standards. This can't be helped.
I wonder if a way to fix that would be more beginner oriented sites. Sites that are smaller so everyone feels a bit more obligated to play everyone else's games. TDC is very open to newcomers, but newcomers can get kind of lost in the crowd.
Muz, this could just be my experience but I don't know a single person who has switched from Game Maker to MMF. On the other hand - Derek Yu and xerus switched to GM and Konjak now uses Construct as far as I know.
One thing that has always bothered me is Clickteam's marketing.
I was introduced to K&P when I saw the K&P Gamepack CD in a game shop. It was £5 but you couldn't save, so I upgraded. A few years later, I saw a magazine ad for The Games Factory and bought it at PC World. Since then I've been bought MMF1.5 and MMF2 directly from Clickteam.
It's the complete lack of advertising that gets me now. I understand that marketing has changed a lot since 1996 (I'm surprised that game magazines still exist!) but Clickteam don't seem to be trying very hard to get MMF out there. I think the education approach is working financially for them, though. When I compare YoYoGames' image to Clickteam's image - that is, how their website looks on the first page - there's no doubt which company, and probably which community, looks more fun to be a part of.
Jeff said that Clickteam's new users (forum registrations) in 2009 was much more than in 2008 (it's true!) so obviously Clickteam's products are finding a way out there. So.. what's going on here, on this site?
Assault Andy Administrator
I make other people create vaporware
Registered 29/07/2002
Points 5686
29th April, 2010 at 04:49:35 -
I posted a simliar idea a while ago when this topic came up, but here it is again:
I think people need to make teams and make more games.
Back in "the old days" there were lots of click groups such as Faind, BlackEye Software, etc. and you just don't really see them anymore. It seems everyone used to be in some sort of Clicker group, pumping out games. Being in a group is really cool because then you have artists and programmers matched together, instead of trying to do everything themselves. Being in a group allows you to motivate each other and bounce around ideas really quickly.
A few months back I sent a message to Jess Bowers, because I liked his artwork and since then we've helped each other out enormously. We made Zday20 together and we've both worked on Captain Plokey, all because I sent him a message and offered to help him out on his Plokey engine.
So what I'm saying is, I think programmers need to find artists and artists need to find programmers... then get making some games!
Alternatively, maybe we should start a "buddy" system, where experienced coders get paired with inexperienced MMF coders and help them out, teaching them some new things. The same could be done with artists
If anyone wants me to help them out with coding, I'd be more than happy to.
I've been working with quite a few people on various game projects.
My current project is huge right now, and prolly won't be finished for another year, but I have a lot of people helping. Most aren't from this site though.
I miss those old game making groups too. V-real, and fallen angle were my favorites.
I'm alive and making games, it's just that school is really taking up a lot of time. I think when summer rolls around this place will be more active. AT least I'll be around more often.
Originally Posted by Assault Andy I posted a simliar idea a while ago when this topic came up, but here it is again:
I think people need to make teams and make more games.
Back in "the old days" there were lots of click groups such as Faind, BlackEye Software, etc. and you just don't really see them anymore. It seems everyone used to be in some sort of Clicker group, pumping out games. Being in a group is really cool because then you have artists and programmers matched together, instead of trying to do everything themselves. Being in a group allows you to motivate each other and bounce around ideas really quickly.
A few months back I sent a message to Jess Bowers, because I liked his artwork and since then we've helped each other out enormously. We made Zday20 together and we've both worked on Captain Plokey, all because I sent him a message and offered to help him out on his Plokey engine.
So what I'm saying is, I think programmers need to find artists and artists need to find programmers... then get making some games!
Alternatively, maybe we should start a "buddy" system, where experienced coders get paired with inexperienced MMF coders and help them out, teaching them some new things. The same could be done with artists
If anyone wants me to help them out with coding, I'd be more than happy to.
This is exactly the sort of idea that TDC needs. People shouldn't be afraid to ask for help on here, however I fear that far too many people are. I for one don't like asking for help too much as I have been here for so long i should have a decent idea how to code the things I need to do. Truth be told, I don't. I make more applications for work and other people than I do games. The applications I make are generally well accepted and work very well. this is where I excel when using MMF2.
When it comes to games I get frustrated very quickly both by my coding and my artistic abilities. Being able to request a bit of help every now and then would be great.
One idea to help integrate this would be to actually put the points system to use here and use them to "pay" other members for their help.
For example:
I need a graphics artist to draw me an active object with each of its directions filled with one frame.
Each direction must show a different picture.
I also need a set of backdrops drawing with a perception of depth.
Please see attached images for examples.
I will pay the artist in question X points upon completion of their work.
If an artisit then decided to take up the project they could post a reply to it stating that they would do it and then when the work was done they could post a further reply with a link to the files.
If the user who requested them doesn't pay up the artist can complain to an admin who can then perform the transaction for them.
TGF2 Fifty euro's vs GM pro twenty euro's cannot be the problem I guess. Sure GM lite is free and I have no idea how powerful or limited it is, nor do I know much of GM pro and if it should be compared to MMF2 for 300 euro's.
Now that I think if it, I am not sure if I can be of any specific help since I haven't visited this site very often for a while now. The only exception to that might be this year.
One of the main reasons was work. Less time was left for games, let alone complete games. So no need to upgrade but also no incentive to explore and test new features which may lead to new articles, tutorials, demo's or any other topics.
The moderation situation/structure of this site is unclear to me, but with a decent set of basic rules for good behavior on this site and perhaps more moderators and moderators which will be divided over subjects so they don't have to cover the entire site. But just the articles section, might be a good start for constructive criticism and preventing off topic replies.
O and it might not be possible to check all content before placing, but it would get rid of articles like this: http://create-games.com/article.asp?id=2180 to give an example.
The fact probably remains that lots of people don't start with click products but move on to other game production tools, including me.
So should we have an official "Team formation" day? It sounds like it would be fun to have a bunch of projects by different teams being updated on the projects page.
Assault Andy Administrator
I make other people create vaporware
Registered 29/07/2002
Points 5686
29th April, 2010 at 12:28:47 -
I think a Team Formation thing would be cool. I could start a forum thread where people post their speciality (Coder, Artist, Musician/Sound) and then we can match people up into groups of two or more. Once teams are formed we should say that they need to post a project within 1 week or they've failed
I am actually thinking of starting a community site for beginners, mainly aimed at highschool students who just start out. I got a lot of my digital art students into using click products, but I won't send them here because everything is rated and the sometimes rude atmosphere. These are big downers for starters. I have most of the graphics done anyway, just have to find a good website coder.
@Hayo: I can not code interactive sites at all, but i would find writing articles on how to make engines (i.e. Using simple maths) fun . I help run labs at uni, and when someone shakes your hand or thanks you at the end of the course, it is a great feeling
Team Formation day? Pfft... let's have a team competition, where the requirement is to work in teams
I don't think it's really a big problem, though. I shamelessly look for a team member for the smallest thing, like writing stories. I think people just aren't forming teams properly. You have people who look for team members for projects they aren't interested in. You've got people with good ideas who keep all their ideas in their head. You have people with good projects and management, but don't actually finish their projects. 95% of teams don't work out.
Remember that OMG Zombies project? That fell through because of technical problems, but I really liked the team quality involved there. We need more projects like that, even if they don't go through. Just witnessing it was fun, because of the passion involved. Since it's so hard to actually finish a game these days, I think watching ambitious projects get finished would be just as fun as playing them.
I've also had a lot of fun in Click groups. All failed, but I think my best kliking times were making games with someone else. Even when it involves some argument
Hmm.. here's another suggestion... how about we make some "klik clans" and have TDC put up some rating board for whichever is the winning clan. Some simple rating system could work.
- Klik groups register their clan with TDC, through their profile or something.
- When a group member finishes a game rated over 3 stars, they get a point.
- When a group member finishes a game rated at 4 stars or above, they get 2 bonus points.
- If the game is featured on the TDC front page, it's another point. No points are given if they're off TDC, to prevent people from making indie blogs to bump their score, etc.
- When a group member has a project with more than 20 favorites (who aren't group members), they get a point.
- No points are given for GOTM to prevent large groups from flooding GOTM
- Klikers can rate other clans and change this rating in the future.
- TDC themed games and apps (arcade, chat, etc) may gain bonus points at the discretion of some judges
We then put another page on TDC to rank these clans, mention how many members they have, etc. So, there's some encouragement for klikers to help each other. Newer klikers can go for quantity and still gain points, old klikers could go for quality, gain less points, but a reputation for good games, and scrape a few points from bonus ratings.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Klick clans eh? That's the best idea I have ever heard(assuming Construct games can be submitted for groups too, hehe).
Maybe each one could be headed by an admin, and they could have their own designated forums?
I think it would be more organized, instead of 27 different groups that fall apart and stuff, maybe only like 3-4 different ones, each named/coloured by an admin or something.
Then people make the choice of which group they would like to make games for, and then their project page is placed in the corresponding section.
That would actually motivate me to visit this site wayyyy more often.
I.E. Instead of making a game just for a rating, then being forgotten, you would actually aid that entire group depending on the quality of the game.
I visit the site very often. Everyday actually. But I rarely post comments and give feedback to others; let alone download the game :/.
I guess people need motivation to give feedback? Maybe a level system like the one Kongregate has? But then again, TDC is fine as it is.
When I joined TDC I created "Blob's Adventure" and I seemed to be getting alot of positive feedback (also won the GOTW, yay!) which led me to creating more games, so I created Blobs Adventure 2 and got alot of positive feedback on that one too. It seems noone is really taking the time to download games/give feedback. School is taking up alot of time lately as UrbanMonk said and I think that's part the reason (for some clickers). But I don't think the community is dying
@Solgryn: If you had been here a few years earlier you would understand when people say the community is dying. When i look at the Active Users Page now i rarely see over 20 active users. 20 Active Users used to be the norm for this site.
@Muz: I think that sounds like a pretty good idea and should be done as soon as possible.
Originally Posted by Hayo mainly aimed at highschool students who just start out. I got a lot of my digital art students into using click products, but I won't send them here because everything is rated and the sometimes rude atmosphere. These are big downers for starters.
I agree with that, but I was maybe 10 whewn I first used MMF2, and once I bought it I found this site when I was maybe 11. I didn't find I had ever been put down, and I don't think anyones ever been rude to me before.
n/a
Assault Andy Administrator
I make other people create vaporware
We have a good mix of people, and I'll be able to form some teams soon, but we might need another artist or two. So if you're an artist looking to team up with some awesome coders, add your details to the thread
About Phizzy... I liked the dude and found him amusing most of the time, but he completely forgot he was in a family friendly site. He got banned for more than one reason and more than once, yet he always came back (usually under a new account). Some people were closer to him and I can understand that, but saying he was banned unfairly ? Falsely announcing Novasoft's death was a very good reason alone, and as far as I remember he wasn't banned for that.
As for why the community is dying:
Clickteam's products lost their popularity very quickly. The glory days are long gone, alternatives grew everywhere while clickteam kept updating and repackaging KnP under new names. Now that they noticed things aren't as bright anymore, they actually started working on really interesting stuff. HWA (should have been here for years) and the flash export (though force people to buy it as a separate addon is a bit of a shot in the foot, but oh well) are very nice additions, but I'm afraid it's too late now. Very little new users pop in, and a lot of people are abandoning the tools to use other solutions, most of them free, and with more attractive features than mmf2.
Sadly, TDC is suffering from this. Making the site less click-centric is the only solution, but even then it might not be enough because this site has been known only among clickers, most people here posting non-click games are former klikers who switched to new tools/ actual programming.
Oh and to the people saying the community is getting worse, that's definitely not true. Bad games get constructive comments and often give the creators some motivation to work on new games. A few years ago I remember many -my-first-game kind of game getting comments such as "why did you spend your time working on this junk ?", "this is absolute rubbish", "this sux" and so on. The community definitely matured (or at least a big portion of it), I don't think that's the reason.
Yeah, falsely announcing Novasofts death really annoyed me perhaps more than anything else Phizzy has done, especially as it was so close to the legitimate death of Darran Baker (DeathreaperX) who I got along with really well.
As for this site... well, people get older and the impetuous for a personal hobby goes away when you develop relationships, get married, get really busy jobs, etc. In some ways, the situation is comparable to TV shows like Big Brother, which each year loses millions of viewers as people get tired of the format.
What can we do though... I say keep going and keep plugging away. It could just be we've hit a quiet spot - don't forget this site was reasonably active around Christmas time. Even the games industry has quiet spots, with the infamous Summer Games Drought taking place each year. It's just a period of time. Students are concentrating on their exams too, preparing for them and what-not. And yes a little bit of advertising would not hurt, which is why I've contacted Retro Gamer magazine, hoping to plug this place and Click products in general. If other people did this too, with different magazines, I'm sure one of them would be willing to focus on the issue.
he always OK but slightly odd when I was here last (Last thing i remember was an article about time travel involving deloreans, going 88 MPH and LED's).
Thing is, it sounds like a lot of people, from my point of view at least, think Phizzy is some kind of prophet... some kind of saviour... and it is he alone that prevented the community from TEH DEYING!!!
Almost as much pap as believing people woule believe that . There is so many klikers I can remember that no longer seem to klik anymore. In terms of uk klikers what happened to paul jeffries and their klik group?
lol that reminds of of muggus. He had a game involving an guy 'sporting' a mullet. I think whats needed is not one individual but a atmosphere revamp. I-klik it but advanced .
I think we all did . What gets me is how young we all were, i think i was 15/16 and you and Hayo was 17 or 18 (everyone else was similar ages), yet the community was very mature (me and allan was always over ambitious and gave up on lots of projects lol but that was us being naive) and always nice.
Phizzy was a rather odd uk kliker that got upto mischief while I was retired.
It still amazes me how well Iklik-it worked considering we only had about 40 active members and especially considering the founder/admin (Peter D) was a complete idiot. Using the site for christian propaganda, forcing us to click banners and trying to sell the domain to Steve.
There was a general atmosphere of "great! we are all making games!" and none of this "I want more coverage or I'll give everybody else 0 stars"
Originally Posted by Chris Street Thing is, it sounds like a lot of people, from my point of view at least, think Phizzy is some kind of prophet... some kind of saviour... and it is he alone that prevented the community from TEH DEYING!!!
He was banned for all our sins
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
lol awesome let me know if I can do anything, I am still up for writing some articles especially if its for Iklik
I never took any notice of the religious aspect of the old iklik, even if the main logo did have a huge cross as its main background haha! I did get irritated at Peter the once, seeing as he refused to put my game on the downloads page (it was a bit risque for him I think - it involved farting).
I hope some of the old regulars will return if Iklik V2 comes to fruition.
It's easily a combination of factors, you've got the old guards moving on in their lives as they're getting older; starting families, careers, not having the time to make fun games.
You've got the general falloff in popularity that the klik products are currently in. The base of the product hasn't essentially changed since the TGF/MMF days. Let me put it this way, you can only make an NES game so pretty. Sure you can add new powerups, shiny graphics and the like; but it's still an NES game. Clickteam is a small company and can only do so much, I give them massive credit for what they have and continue to accomplish. But lets face it, it's mostly those who were around in the TGF/MMF days who are still around. Kids today would rather make an iPhone or Flash game. It was totally unique years and years ago, CT had esseentially the whole market; but this has changed in the last years.
Finally, you've got the near impossible barrier to entry in posting a game anymore. Before it was fully possible to spend a week making a game, post it up and people would play it and comment. Now it seems that these fun little games are ignored while everyone waits for the next Mina or Bonesaw. These projects drag out to years and years, then just die. Newbies are quickly discouraged when noone plays their games, and then they fall out of the community. The hostile nature of some of the members of this site don't help either. Basically, we are now getting out of the community what we put in for all those years. For all the good people brought to this community, the bad outweighed it. We've brought up an entire generation of klikers as hostile, over sarcastic, and completely jaded. Why? Because that's how we acted.
But there is hope. I realized this whilst playing Death Giver 2. The comments were all very positive, and the author genuinely seemed thrilled about the response. It's not something that would be considered "normal" around here in the last two years or so. It's a trend that I hope continues. I miss the days when this place was bustling full of activity; watching promising newbies improve their craft and get the recognition they deserve.
Death Giver 2 is a fantastic game that shows what the home-brew community is all about - game-making from the ground up. It's also a great advertising piece for what Clickteam was trying to achieve with KnP all those years back, i.e. that you don't need to be a John Carmack or a Geoff Crammond to be able to make a computer game.
I agree with almost everything you said Shab, but a lot of oldies were i thought quite reasonable on here. When I migrated from iklik I submitted an atrocity of a game called "danger area", and people gave a lot of constructive criticism. I am not to sure where this atmosphere has arisen from.
I'm not saying we all did it. Or that we all did it all the time. But there were some members who did. Those who did left a lasting impression on the community, oftentimes driving the good ones out of the community.
I remember we had a few bullies in the old days. Pod, Hiredgun..some other dudes I can't remember. Those were almost like funny fake accounts. What we have now is totally different and is actually a serious problem. I'd rather have "LOL YOU SUCKS" than "Nah, didn't like it much, 0 stars". I don't like 99% of what gets submitted to this site, and I shut up about it. Nobody is interested in what you don't like, least of all the author.
I don't really see the negativity to the extent some here seem to. I've been noticing quite a bit of constructive criticism lately--far more than I would expect on the internet, and certainly improving.
My memory of Hiredgun was him posting "Nice try but no cigar" on one of my downloads, at least it was better than "meh" or something equally as irritating. I am downloading death giver 2 now. Hoping for some old school klik fun .
I do agree that the community has and will drive people away, it happened to me. Instead of having fun learning on the job and submitting stuff I became obsessed about getting a perfect bug free engine and I was never happy with my graphics as I wanted no bad comments. I now klik for myself, family and friends like pre internet days and I am much happier . Berts adventre will be released online after its been around people I care to give a copy too
This place is great really. I'm not noticing this negativity hayo is complaining about. Really the only thing that annoys me about this place is all the old guys talking about how great the older members were in the glory day. You guys are so focussed on the old members leaving, you haven't noticed the loads of new people we have.
At no point did we mention the older klikers was great. If anything the complexity of games is far higher nowadays, if you was never a member of iklik you have no idea of how nice a klik community can be .
First of all I never complained, I observe. I don't give a shit about it myself but I do care about others. And as far as the "too focussed on old guys" thing goes, I don't know what to say about that. I haven't seen it happen here.
What if we gave VIP members the ability to advertise their download/article/project in 1 of a number of area's on the site, using their DC points?
Set it up so that you pay-per-impression. Say it was 50 points per impression and you pre-paid 1000DC points. You'd get 20 views (excluding your own), before the ad ultimately expired.
This way members with VIP status have another feature and DC points have an added value. And hell, if this works out, maybe we could turn this into a form of real-currency donation for TDC itself.
There would have to be a set standard for the ad, so perhaps a quick admin check off to assure the ad is appropriate, but I believe this would be a very welcome addition to the site. It wouldn't be like product placement or anything because this is something that the site really could benefit from as a community.
PS: The ads would only be able to link to content in our profile. No off-site linking.
Just a quick mock-up image. I doubt the color change would happen because of the different skins and such. There would be an image size restriction dependent on what part of the site your advertising too. Places like forum posts might cost less since people frequently breeze by them.
You'd have control over the ad in your User CP which could display information on how much longer ads have left, how many impressions they've got, whether you want to extend an ad, etc.
Might be an interesting idea to implement for a test run. Could breath some life back into the community itself since it would be entirely self-contained.
Insist on the importance of reviewing. Remind people that a rating is weak support, a comment is good support, but a full on review is fantastic support. I remember earlier on TDC, we had a small group of members who unofficially created an image for themselves as reviewers. Muz was one of them. It was an honor to have one of them take time out of their day to pay close attention to your game and provide constructive feedback to you and everyone else on the site. Maybe we could expand on and make this feature more prominent on the site?
Yeah, and maybe we should also separate trophies from tags because quite frankly, all these tags seem to just completely dilute the value of these trophies. I don't even care to look at peoples tag anymore, so their trophies are virtually invisible to me.
We tossed around the idea of a reviewing team of sorts, didn't we? Or was that an admin discussion? Though it makes sense that if someone has something useful to say, they're likely to say it already, it couldn't hurt to stress that again. Reviewing trophies could help. What would be the requirement? Perhaps after 5 well-received reviews, and regular contributions afterward, you get a TDC review team tag.
If we get a lot of reviews, we'd soon by inundated by lengthy paragraphs that nobody would read. The emphasis is on making and improving games, after all, not writing about them. So I think useful comments should be the main focus. I'd be opposed to such an absurd idea as rating comments (thumbs up/down), but perhaps ratings without a corresponding comment to back them up could be thumbsed down until they're taken off. Lots of chance for abuse, though... Hm. What about that outlandish idea (that I'm not even sure I like) of removing download ratings and just keeping count of favorites?
We introduced the trophies with the intention of getting people to send them to each other and be more supportive. A good question to consider is whether or not these new ideas will have as little impact.
The old days at TDC specifically aren't much different from what they are now. There was however a pretty negative opinion of TDC from other Click community websites, mainly due to having lower restrictions on quality. It was more like an in joke amongst them than anything malicious.
I do recall a few silly comments made towards my TDC member status. But actually I guess some of my releases were pretty n00b back in the early days.
I think setting specific statistics on junk like this, though relieving on the admins, is going to be the death of a lot of these new implementations. What ever happened to good ol' admin approval? I remember these big reviewers who did it on their own, just did it for the fun of doing it, and eventually an admin saw them doing it and gave them a custom rating for it. They appreciated it, not expected it.
I did that interview for a clickzine revival, but it was abandoned before it was started because it was determined that it wouldn't last long. The clickzine doesn't like to exist, I guess.
@Hayo:
I think many of the "This is stupid. 0 stars" comments come from the new ratings being transparent. Back then, if you didn't like a game, you didn't have to say anything. Now you do. And instead of writing why it's stupid, you just give a "meh, overrated" comment. I'm not really happy with the new ratings system, it's more accurate, but it causes a lot more strife.
@Ricky: The old days were more vibrant. Today, you look at the forums and sometimes there might be only 4 posts a day. Back then, there'd be so many discussions that threads would be bumped off a subforum within 3 days. The new people aren't really communicating with the community, they're posting up downloads/projects or downloading them, then leave, without stopping by to chat, so we haven't really noticed them.
@SiLVERFIRE: A long time ago, there was this thing called a review zone. I think Rikus would pick out the best review of the month and toss it there. Not download, but review (the idea was a little odd even then). So there'd be lots of people who, like me, wrote up useful reviews trying to get them up there. Nobody actually looked at the thing, but it was a little encouragement, kinda like how the Top 10 Articles/Downloads is a tiny encouragement now.
Now, there's no review zone, fine. Writing reviews is still fun. They added comments to reviews. Not so bad. There were guys like Shroomlock who wrote lots of reviews. The problem is, the more reviews you write, the more likely you'd write a bad review. Shroomlock wrote one or two reviews that didn't agree with the majority, and people just flamed him for his opinion. I think there's a few other admins who went through that. That's discouraging enough, especially when writing reviews is hard work.
And then, someone modified the review page to be more "objective", that is, to write about sound, graphics, gameplay, etc in different boxes. Unfortunately, a good game is really more than the sum of its parts, it's how the different things go together. Like with Knytt Stories - klikers look at every piece separately, and see a very average game. Game players all over the world look at it as a whole, and even the professional reviewers who play Call of Duty give it a 8/10. Now, it's just much harder to write reviews because of all the boxes you have to fill.
Still, that didn't stop dedicated reviewers. What really got them to quit was when some people decided that instead of making a better game, they could get better ratings by personally attacking every reviewer who didn't give them over a 8/10. They even attacked the "recommended download" tags to make sure that if they weren't getting any tags, then nobody would.
There was a few suggestions of getting a few "official" reviewers. I think one guy became admin for writing good reviews, Wong maybe. The last suggestion to get a TDC official "review squad" fell through because someone hated it and put up a huge fuss about it. Also, the people chosen to be in the review squad told me that they were going to stop visiting TDC because of all the trolling.
I mean I like lengthy paragraphs about games. I don't even download most games these days because I don't trust the main description or the comments, some outside judgement is needed. And I think the reviews really encouraged people to make games. I know some people were excited when I gave them like a 6/10 but a lengthy explanation why. This site is about both getting feedback on your games as well as making new ones, and I think reviews are the best kind of feedback.
Yeah, I think sadly, it's the new features that are hurting TDC. The really good features are nice, of course, like the Arcade, Spotlight, and Projects, but the it-would-be-nice ones, like purchasable tags, self-made custom ratings, the VIP forum, that "minimum 4 words" requirement.. those hurt more than they help. We just have to step back and rethink our strategy, but we seem to do it a lot and it doesn't seem to get better.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Exactly, it was the most exciting thing on this site to get a review. I mean seeing my stars go up, that was cool. Getting comments, that was neat. But a full on review was like "Wow... I need to read this." So yeah, getting reviews, especially the constructive ones, was my favorite part of submitting stuff.
Reviews don't have to be about criticism. I think people get criticism confused with feedback quite alot (i know i used to). Criticism is aimed at the person or the game in a woolley and non-constructive kind of way, such as "i don't like, 0 stars" or "this doesn't deserve 5 stars, 0 stars" - there is no real reason, and this is discouraging.
(Negative) Feedback is about explaining what exactly didn't work so well and is very specific on the specific point. Some people call this constructive criticism (though i think that term is technically contradicting) and an example of negative feedback might be "i thought the idea of implementing a re-load function added to the overall realistic feel of the game, though maybe it would have been better not to have had it since it made the game much too difficult and slightly less enjoyable."
Most members on this site with reasonable dispositions actually prefer this type of info as it helps them get better at their game-making. I remember getting these kinds of comments for R.P.G. (e.g. using the standard movements) and these have helped me become a better game maker.
The same games are being released over and over again. The world moves on, but this community stays the same. Only it's more boring now. We need new things, people! We need people to attempt those super difficult and complex projects that they'll never finish, simply because it gives us something to look forward to. Some of my best memories have been working on games that I never finished, because I ended up imagining how good and ambitious they would be. It's better than just 'oh, this will be a standard platformer BUT WITH A TWIST... you can control 2 DIFFERENT CHARACTERS!!!' wow, I really stay awake at night thinking about that.
And who knows, somebody might actually finish one of those super complex and impossible projects that they start.
Don't aim for perfection- you'll miss the deadline
'~Tom~ says (16:41):
well why does the custom controls for the keyboard palyer even affect the menu controls at all whats thep oint jsutm ake it so for the keyboard palyer on the menu screens everything is always up down left right enter regardless of the controls they set'
We all need a Holy Grail to aim for, even if we never get there. We need more innovation than just 'oh, this will be a standard platformer BUT WITH A TWIST... you can control 2 DIFFERENT CHARACTERS!!!' wow, I really stay awake at night thinking about that.
EDIT: Since when did editing a comment make a new one?
Edited by 3kliksphilip
Don't aim for perfection- you'll miss the deadline
'~Tom~ says (16:41):
well why does the custom controls for the keyboard palyer even affect the menu controls at all whats thep oint jsutm ake it so for the keyboard palyer on the menu screens everything is always up down left right enter regardless of the controls they set'
I used to be like 3kliksphilip having tried to make a GTA 1 style klik clone numerous times. It was a lot of fun, but what do I have to show? Some buggy and or exceedingly slow engines.
Creating a good solid SNES or even NES quality (sound, graphics and the engine) platformer is a lot of work, especially when you have jobs, study and a nagging er I mean completely understanding GF .
I don't even think the change is a bad thing. It's just change. Years ago makers of games looked like nerds, now they look like indie rockers with fluffy beards, horn-rimmed glasses and loud shirts. Not just the click community changed, the whore freeware gaming scene is totally different. It's not as naive anymore and it got harder to come up with something that people notice, because of all the beards.
hagar, what do you have to show since you changed your strategy?
I'd be a hypocrite to say that everybody is wrong and I'm right, but I personally just don't see what's so appealing about the same old platformer games over and over again. There are so many other areas that have barely been touched by the community. RPGs, for example. And as for GTA clones, sure I'd be up for trying out any if people bother to make them on this site. But they're few and far between. And with modern computers sporting such incredible specs these days, I don't think that slow-down is much of a problem unless you're still all using 266 mhz celerons.
Don't aim for perfection- you'll miss the deadline
'~Tom~ says (16:41):
well why does the custom controls for the keyboard palyer even affect the menu controls at all whats thep oint jsutm ake it so for the keyboard palyer on the menu screens everything is always up down left right enter regardless of the controls they set'
@3klik: I retired from klik before you registered here , within a short while i hope to have some footage of game i am working on called berts adventure, a remake of my very first game made pre knp. I do get what your saying though and i have said it myself in the past (usually for isometric sim games), but for lone developers a big game is a hell of a lot of work. I have a q9400, 4gb of ram and a hd4870 so i have no problems running any games .
@Hayo: me and my friends come up with a similar idea in respect to academia. The more facial hair (in particular beards) the more respect you earn from peers.
I do see what's wrong with just another platformer, because that's what you and other people of this community most likely do not want to see. But the fact remains that it's fun for me to create another platformer and I like them. Sure many of them are the same, but not all of them.
Also I've done my share of innovative new idea's and games which were not demo's with other people. And there weren't well received all of the time.
So actually I don't see what's wrong with another platformer. Shouldn't it be a fun and nice project for the creator to come up with a new game? Whether is a platformer, rpg, fps, racer or whatever?
And sure it would be cool if you guys liked my game too and I am not the only one having fun with it.
Now you can put up your skills: coder/artist/musician and join a team to create something new and innovative totally the way you want it.
Or just keep pointing people in the right direction with comments and reviews, so the next platformer won't be the same old one again.
Hayo, the reason I asked what he had to show was because he said that before he changed his strategies he didn't have anything to show, yet there still isn't anything to see from his profile.
Don't aim for perfection- you'll miss the deadline
'~Tom~ says (16:41):
well why does the custom controls for the keyboard palyer even affect the menu controls at all whats thep oint jsutm ake it so for the keyboard palyer on the menu screens everything is always up down left right enter regardless of the controls they set'
I will start publicising my work in my own time, no one elses. As previously mentioned I will distribute my work before a public release to friends and family. Also I retired before you joined up and after my webhost died there is no point in having a page full of dead links.
Plus I have got to pay for a decent web host , after that I will start a project page up.
I accidentally paid for 2 years that I didn't need on a grid hosting package so I dropped a script onto it and made it into free file hosting. Sometimes larger files fail to upload though, I can't figure out the problem. Someone with better php knowledge could prolly help me though.
Lack of new content. The Arcade is really kinda lame and doesn't have good enough games to play. All the good games are/were downloadable and even good download games are hrad to come by. Plus barely any people come to this site anymore, as all the people who use clickteam products don't go to community sites or have no idea about this site.
Originally Posted by 3kliksphilip The same games are being released over and over again. The world moves on, but this community stays the same. Only it's more boring now. We need new things, people! We need people to attempt those super difficult and complex projects that they'll never finish, simply because it gives us something to look forward to. Some of my best memories have been working on games that I never finished, because I ended up imagining how good and ambitious they would be. It's better than just 'oh, this will be a standard platformer BUT WITH A TWIST... you can control 2 DIFFERENT CHARACTERS!!!' wow, I really stay awake at night thinking about that.
And who knows, somebody might actually finish one of those super complex and impossible projects that they start.
Two problems there:
1. Those games take forever to complete. A simple, generic game takes only a few weeks, and you can fork out a lot of them, compared to the ones that take forever.
2. Once in a while, some really epic game gets released, like The Spirit Engine, Knytt Stories, Iffermoon, or one of Dr James' games. Or heck, even the ones from Blue Tea Games. Basic games get 5 stars. Everyone keeps fighting for basic games to be rated 5 stars. But the games that people are paying for outside the community gets like 3 stars.
There's simply no motivation to aim high. Actually announcing your ambitious project on TDC is demotivating. The ambitious people tend to move on to TIGSource, but even with the fighting around here, TDC is a nicer place than TIGS.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Maybe I should challenge you, Hayo, so we can set up a deadline for publishing our new game. Although I like when it's done it's done more. Still it's a great challenge since your a little bit ahead.
Nevertheless, creating games takes time, time and then some more time to add the finishing touch. Time is a very rare resource to deal with.
The motivation to aim high should be yours or came from a good competition like the one on the front page right now.
I'm guessing this has been discussed A LOT already, but my conclusion is that a lot of the people who surfed this place during the 'golden age' have started to grow up.
The market is flooding with game-making software, and the competition is getting bigger and bigger, which simply prevents new users from finding this place after googling "game-making". What's left is a bunch of loyal members who eventually gets jobs, families and everything else that is so much more rewarding for a lot of people.
well this site could be revived to its former glory, maybe what i'm about to say is blasphemy or something but.. .why does this have to be a clickteam product exclusive game making site? what is the reason for that? Why not refocus its target audience to 'indie game development in general' people who want to make games through whatever means they choose. MMf2; Game-Maker.. CONSTRUCT or more advanced scripted games etc.. maybe even include sections for game mods or mapping. I mean I first visited TDC back in 2003 or something and tbh its pretty much IDENTICAl!
I remember when the klik community was as big as it is now, and we had one message board (The Wall) and The AP-Zone. Now we have this huge site, which is nice to have, but it's like 20 people walking around Costco.
I think mr Tom has a point. Even though this is not a click-only site 90% of the people think it is (might be the name). But I think Rikus and gang are already working on that.
Its not a clickteam product exclusive site??.... yeah it is.
Its not like it is enforced but i mean look at the forum there is a board for 'Other software bsides click' while the rest are click dedicated. Doesnt exactly give a welcome message to visitors who use different software. they WILL go elsewhere.
I don't think it should be for any other products than Click. If I wanted an indie game forum, I'd go somewhere else for that. What's wrong with having a bit of a niche?
"If I wanted an indie game forum, I'd go somewhere else for that. What's wrong with having a bit of a niche? "
that is exactly my point. people who want an indie game forum go somewhere else for that. How about we make it so they don't. What is wrong with having a bit of a niche? well its a niche! and by definition small in audience. TDC requires funding you know.
That argument doesn't make sense. It requires funding up to the level of its userbase; if TDC suddenly got thousands of new visitors, bandwidth costs would rocket upwards.
How about TDC scales down its website? Just a thought - make it exclusively Clickteam, get rid of the Arcade, the useless points system, and KlikCast, make the content more specific (vetting for games that get allowed in the d/l section, so no demos or crap, but allow a section of the forum for specific games to be posted and be discussed); in short, make the site smaller but better.
Not an entirely serious or specific plan, but just pointing out that maybe we're looking at it the wrong way. Instead of making TDC this big, sprawling, directionless website, we could actually pinpoint what the site should actually be all about: Click.
Originally Posted by Matt Boothman That argument doesn't make sense. It requires funding up to the level of its userbase; if TDC suddenly got thousands of new visitors, bandwidth costs would rocket upwards.
How about TDC scales down its website? Just a thought - make it exclusively Clickteam, get rid of the Arcade, the useless points system, and KlikCast, make the content more specific (vetting for games that get allowed in the d/l section, so no demos or crap, but allow a section of the forum for specific games to be posted and be discussed); in short, make the site smaller but better.
Not an entirely serious or specific plan, but just pointing out that maybe we're looking at it the wrong way. Instead of making TDC this big, sprawling, directionless website, we could actually pinpoint what the site should actually be all about: Click.
Now THAT is a radical (and actually not that crazy) thought!!
As for the "no demos or crap" comment - how about a demos section set away from the actual Downloads section entirely? We could even put game engines in there too.
Originally Posted by Matt Boothman That argument doesn't make sense. It requires funding up to the level of its userbase; if TDC suddenly got thousands of new visitors, bandwidth costs would rocket upwards.
How about TDC scales down its website? Just a thought - make it exclusively Clickteam, get rid of the Arcade, the useless points system, and KlikCast, make the content more specific (vetting for games that get allowed in the d/l section, so no demos or crap, but allow a section of the forum for specific games to be posted and be discussed); in short, make the site smaller but better.
Not an entirely serious or specific plan, but just pointing out that maybe we're looking at it the wrong way. Instead of making TDC this big, sprawling, directionless website, we could actually pinpoint what the site should actually be all about: Click.
"It requires funding up to the level of its userbase; if TDC suddenly got thousands of new visitors, bandwidth costs would rocket upwards."
-there is such a thing as economy of scale. Yeah higher costs but also higher revenue, chances are revenue increase will exceed cost increase if you increase your audience. The more you add to the userbase the less the cost per user is. I mean imagine if the site had 1 visitor, it would cost a fair amount more per user than if it had 10000 visitors.
I dont want to make this an argument but i'd like to understand this idea. genuinely could someone explain to me why they would want this site to be MORE clickteam orientated and scaled back to a smaller userbase? Don't you want to encourage more people to make and share games, or hide away so that noone else can see your games or be introduced to making them? It just doesnt seem to make sense to me.
TDC will always be a Click site. It allows lots of other non-Click products. Click products can now win GOTW. But deep down inside, it's a Click site by heart. It's a bit funny, it's like how nationalist fight against immigration, nobody really wants to work against other products.
But here, things are still directed at Click, because it's how it was made. Articles are written for klikers. Engines are built for klikers. Forums are about building Click teams.
It's not ever going to be a full indie site because it wasn't built to be one. There's been a lot of attempts to turn it into one, and it's met with some controversy by the admins, lol. The original consensus was to build a separate site for indie games in general, then we slowly integrated non-Click games into TDC, like letting them have the front page and win GOTW.
But we just can't break from being a niche for Click games. If we changed to full indie, half the members would leave, because it's where they go to for Click. There's been a few thoughts thrown around from TDC's owners to build a new, cleaner sister site for just indie games, but it's never really gone through.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
I think it would be nice to look at TDC as a place to make games, not showcase them. In a small, focussed community you are more likely to get support while making game. Then when the game is done you can post it on large flashy community sites for bearded indiegamefaggots and brag about it. TDC seems to be in between right now.
Originally Posted by Hayo I think it would be nice to look at TDC as a place to make games, not showcase them. In a small, focussed community you are more likely to get support while making game. Then when the game is done you can post it on large flashy community sites for bearded indiegamefaggots and brag about it. TDC seems to be in between right now.
I think the opposite. In my opinion, developer section and game portal section could and should exist alongside and form a successful symbiosis of a kind, not at all excluding each other. I always like to refer to the Game Maker community at YoYoGames as an example: Play - Make - Share. The actual front page of the site is gamer focused, it's basically a gaming portal. The games produced by the community that are featured in the central marketing spots on the site get thousands, even tens of thousands of game sessions. The most popular games have been played nearly half a million times. The active developer community that is integrated to this gaming portal has a direct path to get their content out there and visible among the community - not only other developers but especially players. No need to market your game to outside portals when your own community has a huge user base of players that you can reach right now. --> more incentive for developing new stuff AND publishing it in the community site --> more and better games --> more active developer community --> more players... it's a snowball effect.
*This* is also what Clickteam would really, really need for MMF/TGF.
TDC is pretty much completely developer focused only. Developers submit games for other developers to play. Average download count per content item is measured in dozens. Don't get me wrong here - I do think TDC is a great Click developer community, the best that has ever existed in my opinion. I'm just saying that there is a lot of wasted potential in the user generated content that doesn't reach its #1 user group, gamers, in the Downloads list very effectively at all. There are so many good, even great games, developed by the community that get forgotten immediately after release. Of course if TDC is aimed to be only a "closed" developer group of a handful of people, that is completely ok then. I would set the bar a bit (a lot) higher though.
Arcade was the first step into the right direction. To provide the members a way to really showcase the games and try to get non-clickers, non-developers, gamers, to the site to actually play the games created by the community. Offer more incentive for developing and publishing games when the users see that the games are actually played and not just buried in the downloads list. Of course the Arcade is just in the beginning (I hope) as currently there are still major challenges in the manual content submission process and long lead times, and to some extent a bit too developer focused site layout. But it does have some nice potential in extending the scope of the site and activate also the dev side of the community.
Well, either way, I hope to see this site thriving in the future and getting more and more users.
Originally Posted by Hayo I think it would be nice to look at TDC as a place to make games, not showcase them. In a small, focussed community you are more likely to get support while making game. Then when the game is done you can post it on large flashy community sites for bearded indiegamefaggots and brag about it. TDC seems to be in between right now.
It's an interesting point; do we 'market' our games in the hope that more and more people take up developing games with click, or focus more on the development of new users in the hope of them making better games and thus more people playing them? Which comes first, the chicken or the egg?
The difference immediately obvious between here and YoYo is that YoYo has a better resourced based community, with its excellent Wiki. Maybe we could do something like this? The Articles page is incredibly chaotic, and it's very hard to find the article you're after - MMF2 is mixed up with MMF1.5 which is mixed up with TGF, there is virtually no vetting of completely rubbish articles, and the ratings system is so easily abused and often misleading. There's no organisation to vast areas of the site; downloads with broken links aren't removed, articles with missing images aren't either. I would like to hear some opinions of new users of the site to see what they think - if I were knew I think I'd be flummoxed. This is what I mean by streamlining, making it easier for people who want to learn to find the info they want. And making it easier for people who want to play to find the very best games. A single Top 15 list is no good. I can understand why people don't want to submit their games to this site.
You are aware of the fact that you're basically saying that the TDC backend needs a full redesign with new functions, methods, systems and implementations in order to correctly maintain the vast amount of data in nearly all of the site's sections.
But I do agree with the fact that the 'listed chaos' may need a change or update. And full games, even little ones should probably be separated from game demo's, engine's and other half-baked cookings. They might need their own list instead of being a sublist.
I like TDC and the fact that I can put up any game here that I created no matter what way of creating I used. But still it's main focus is click and developers.
The arcade could be updated as a general games page focussed on players instead of developers. However I might not generate more click creators because not every player is a developer.
Originally Posted by Jenswa The arcade could be updated as a general games page focussed on players instead of developers. However I might not generate more click creators because not every player is a developer.
It would generate more developer activity indirectly acting as an incentive for developers to submit games. Currently those incentives are quite limited, which does not encourage publishing.
In the optimal situation (in my view anyway), 99% of Arcade users would be non-developers.
I do agree the articles page needs an overhaul. But the big question how would it look like? The smaller questions are who'll sort it out and who'll do the coding? An even smaller question, for the sake of bulletproofing from trolls, is that whether we can do it fairly. I think some article categories could also help, and maybe a database for obsolete articles (TGF1, MMF1.5, complaints on how TDC used to be).
If you see a download with a broken link or any other technical problems, you should tap that Alert Admin button about it. It's not just for people spouting bad language or flame wars, it's for "if you believe the content needs reviewing". That even includes minor things like double posts, typos, bugs, etc. They don't always get fixed, but a lot of problems are only noticed when someone points them out.
Anyway, I think TDC has a nice balance between making and showcasing stuff. It's just that when you try do two things, you end up achieving only half of both - reviews/ratings are a bit below par compared to dedicated sites, and so is helpfulness when making games. Total Klik did a great job with showcasing Click games, and Klik Academy/Klik Resource were better at providing help. TDC's always been sort of providing everything, maybe that's the only reason it's outlasted them.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
I never really thought about what this site needs. But reading all of this is vary interesting. I never realized all the challgens the site faces. And I'm kind of indifferent to all the bells and whistles of the site. Who knows what this site will be like in the future.
We need not worry about it. Each member has a unique skill set that lead him to this site. Of course, I'm talking about 2d. Everything about mm2 tools, and other click products are geared towards 2d. In my opinion their is still lots of interest in creating 2d animation. This interest 2d is what bought me here, and the jounery has been a fun one.
I like the site how it is and don't plan on giving up my 2d art hobby any time soon.
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Edited by markno2
jenswa.neocities.org
he always OK but slightly odd when I was here last (Last thing i remember was an article about time travel involving deloreans, going 88 MPH and LED's).
" So yeah, getting reviews, especially the constructive ones, was my favorite part of submitting stuff.
