I just noticed this topic over at the Clickteam forums. I agree with everything the original poster says about Clickteam's marketing and underselling MMF. Since the topic was locked very early, it'd be good to see if we can continue it over here.
Quoted below, in case the original thread goes missing in a "server update".
Originally Posted by Digitalic
I know this isn't a technical support issue, but my comments relate directly to MMF2...
I don't understand why Clickteam undersell themselves so greatly in the UK. The UK website is, in my view, quite poor and rarely updated, and it simply does not sell the product; it looks dated and 'stale'. To be brutal, it looks like it belongs to an old product that was developed and then forgotten about.
I have been coding for decades, and specifically in AS3 for a couple of years now; I 'inhabit' many of the most popular Flash/AS3 web sites and blogs, and I have never seen MMF2 mentioned on any of them, and I consider MMF2 with the SWF Exporter to be a killer application. If nothing else it is an amazing, rapid prototyping tool for proof of concept and marketing of games for 'hard-core' Flash coders. Of course, we know that it is more than that!
On the Clickteam UK website the SWF exporter is mentioned as the top item on the home page, but that is in a list were the top 4 entries date back to over a year ago and it's in a small font.
MMF is a multimedia product; where is the multimedia on the website? Why not create a Flash banner using MMF2? There should be a link to Flash games and applications created with MMF, and the link should be prominent. Where are the 'screencasts' showing the ease-of-use of the product, and the amazing things that can be achieved in (literally) minutes.
I am now a secondary-school teacher, and I teach Year 7 students (11 years-old) to create their own games in a matter of hours. Continuing the educational theme, MMF2 would be fantastic for creating coursework for qualifications such as Edexcel's DiDA course. Matchware promote their multimedia product for this purpose and it is endorsed on the Edexcel website.
Even when I click on the 'Products' link on the ClickTeam website, there is no mention of Flash or the SWF exporter!
Where is the marketing? I think I read about MMF many years ago in one of the main UK monthly magazines, but I have certainly not read about it recently, and I read all the major journals. How about providing a time-restricted trial version to the major magazines, along with an article (or two) demonstrating how users can create Flash games with ease (if they buy the full product with the exporter)?
Have you sent out press-releases letting the media know about the new SWF Exporter? This release warrants a complete review of MMF2 and the SWF Exporter which would provide excellent exposure for the product. It might also be a good opportunity to drop in information about forthcoming exporters (iPhone/iPad?) which would certainly get the press talking with the current controversies.
I am not writing this post as a method of promoting myself, but as a former journalist for a (now long defunct) UK computer magazine, a teacher, and an IT expert (over 2 decades in the industry), I would be happy to consider writing any articles or materials required for a promotional push.
I know this post may appear to be very critical of Clickteam, but I am really attempting to be positive; I think it is a wonderful product with massive potential. Certainly, the SWF Exporter has given the product a new lease of life and it frustrates me that it is hiding out of sight of the mainstream market. I have tried several (if not all) "Click to create" products over the past couple of decades, and MMF2 is the only one that has come anywhere near meeting 'real-life' requirements; all the others have failed miserably.
Improved exposure can only improve sales, and improved sales can only mean more resources for future development of the product, which is where my interest lies.
Not only do I agree with Digitalic, by saying that Clickteam's website "looks like it belongs to an old product that was developed and then forgotten about", (s)he put it better than I could have.
But then again, it looks like they seem fine with how much money they are making currently, and they are hiring new folks so they must be content with how things are going right now, still might look frustrating to us outsiders who want more from them and want them to be more out there.
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haha I didn't even know there was a difference between the site versions nor have I thought of ever checking them. The Japanese one looks kind of awesome actually.
MMF2 could be very very popular. I don't get why Clickteam doesn't promote it more, and why nobody ever explains why they don't, and why the subject is a sore one. O_o Something to do with past promotions?
I also wonder why there seems to be a stigma attached to MMF. You mention it to people looking for drag-n-drop software and they say, "Thanks, I'll check out Game Maker." Maybe the name is daunting.
I recommend MMF to whoever is interested in making games, but that's piddlesticks compared to what even one commercial on TV could do.
They're afraid to expand beyond their comfort zone. For the longest time, MMF2 was being designed by only two or three people which is why it's release was almost indefinitely postponed for so long. They've been getting a lot more developers, mainly excellent members from the community that show exceptional talent and drive toward Clickteam products such as Jamie and all his work with Lacewing.
I do agree that MMF2 is drastically undercutting themselves with getting themselves out there and it's a shame that we probably wont see that change within the next year, year and a half. By time Clickteam gets itself out there, half their target community will be bait for competition software since indie game development is becoming a trend. It's no longer uncool to be an indie developer.
Wow just noticed the jap site, It's very cool. If you youtube "Multimedia fusion 2" there are some seemingly well made anime-fighting games already, made by Japanese users
wow @ the japanese site, it makes the other 3 look like garbage.
Why they did 4 different sites for the same exact products is mystifying to me, why not just keep one of them and translate it ?
This gets particularly ridiculous when you have the "english" site and the "UK & Ireland" site. Like, wtf ?
Clickteam is a great little company with a fantastic product. It has always been a small company. KNP and TGF were big because they were supported by big distributors like Europress and Corel who also had significant marketing muscle behind them.
The cooperation with IMSI on MMF1 was a failure (note: just my personal gut feeling based on no concrete facts) and for MMF2 CT adopted a different distribution strategy where they sell the product directly through their own e-store channel with close to 100% revenue share instead of, let's say, 50% of the past days. So there are advantages as well.
It was a logical choice because the market was changing and you could easily manage your own e-store unlike previously in KNP/TGF days, but at the same time all marketing support disappeared as well. In 2010 you really need to have good marketing expertise to keep drawing the traffic to the site through social media, viral marketing, SEO, etc. and keep optimizing the store landing page for higher conversion rates systematically. This is as important as major technical features to the product itself like HWA or flash. Business development and marketing is not necessarily programmers' cup of tea, and it shows when there is no support from a big marketing/distributor partner anymore.
I'd like to see them considering some alternative and innovative ways to get their message across. From developer's perspective, there is a major transition period on going in terms of how large of an audience can you reach with your game developed on MMF2. When I look behind, I see executable and very limited easily-reachable user base. When I look forward I see Flash, iPhone, iPad, Android, Java, XNA and a huge easily reachable audience of literally hundreds of millions of players. Different kind of advertising models are started to be used by MMF2 developers to monetize their MMF2 creations. Among the gamers there are also many developers and wanna-be developers who are the target segment for Clickteam. Now, how about if CT would build a kind of an affiliate/word-of-mouth/incentive/recommendation program for developers who can reach these hundreds of millions of consumers with their games. In practice, this means advertising MMF2 very visibly in their games and generating traffic to CT site and eventually sales. Incentive would be X% of sales. Yes, of course anyone can put the logos and links there right now, but you really need to offer the developers a concrete incentive. You can do the math with
[total reachable user base] * [% share of target group aka developers or wannabe-developers] * [% who play an MMF2 game] * [% who click on the ad] * [% who go to store] * [% who purchase] * [average sales price]
Of course one would need to investigate this business case much more in detail, but when your starting point is measured in hundreds of millions, which really is the case, even with low conversion rates (yes, they will be very low in any case, but higher than through totally non-targeted mass media which I see as not an option for CT) will result in something which I believe could be a major revenue boost for both Clickteam and developers. This would strengthen the whole "Click ecosystem", if you like.
And obviously that's just one way to tackle it. But it's a nice one in a sense that you basically would use your OWN MEDIA, marketing spots within applications created with the product itself. You also build customer loyalty through incentive program like this and probably increase customer lifetime value as well among the existing customer base. Talk about a win-win-win situation.
I think Silverfire's right - they don't want MMF to get too big, because then it becomes unmanageable for their small team, and they've had bad experiences with publishers (Europress/IMSI/etc) in the past.
With the availability of free "copycat" products like Construct and Stencyl, Clickteam really can't carry on the way the way they're going.
I guess we'll see what happens if/when MMF3 appears...
I don't think marketing has ever been their strong point - and lets be fair, we have no idea how their profits/finances are doing. For all we know they could be selling hundreds of copies a day and making plenty of money. MMF2 definitely has the potential, but only if Clickteam are willing to push it. It'd be a lot of hard work, and maybe they're just not ready to do that yet.
In my opinion they need to get rid of the Multimedia Fusion brand and go with something more "snappy" - something short and sweet that describes the product. The name "Multimedia Fusion" just seems a little boring to me, and I don't see it as a particularly good brand. Get a new name, a new product and a sweet-ass logo and start posting it over websites and in magazines.
Scirra are going in the right direction - they have a great emblem/logo for their product (whereas MMF2 is just a blue circle with F2 in it) and they have a great name for their product. I think their only problem is making people aware of their product. I know brand doesn't make the product any better (heck I still prefer MMF2 to Construct), but it's extremely important when you're trying to sell your product to new users.
If you were to get a user who has never used MMF2 or Construct and ask them which they would choose, I think they'd choose Construct (just based on brand and pricing).
Yea, I think the MMF name might be working against them too. It summarizes the application perfectly and sounds cool to a fan like me, but to new customers, it's long and boring.
Nobody remembers what I use. Someone emailed me literally 5 minutes ago, talking about a project: "media... fusion? I think?"
If any of you want to assist in promoting MMF2 contact me via PM at CT or here, or send me a email to CCarson@ you know what. And we can discuss some of your ideas and maybe help out with some things we are cooking. Primary marketing usually requires lots of dollars. So with that challenge we are looking at some Grassroots stuff to really get the message mainstream. Hope to hear from you guys.
I was wondering, what's the difference between the Japanese MMF2 and MMF SP(special) is it like MMF2.5 or something? I've never even heard of it until now.
I do agree that the title MMF can work against clickteam a little bit, it's not as straight forward as The Games Factory or Game Maker. MMF just sounds like...A fusion of Multiple types of Media But I'm sure that the title MMF sounds more professional to schools they're trying to sell it to.
Maybe by showing some cool 8-16 bit games next too some also cool 32-64 or something like some game footage then the letters MMMF2 in 8 bit lettering with Multi Media Fusion Two in smaller letters would be a better approach to the packaging of MMF2. Perhaps some lettering similair to that old G4 show Codemonkeys, sort of a 3d 8-bit lettering.
Mainly all that matters, is that the packaging at least shows the fact MMF2 makes games somewhere, because it doesn't say so in the title...
The name "Multimedia Fusion" Doesn't sound like a game designing program the first time you hear it. It sounds like a program that would be used to design business slideshows or something. The cover art for the box is very misleading as well. If you are scanning the web looking for a game designing program, Game Maker is going to look far more enticing.
So yes, MMF is being seriously under-marketed. I think it has potential to grow a humongous community, if it just takes the next step. It certainly works good enough- it just needs to look good enough.
10001001010010100101, and furthermore, 10010010100100101001111.
The name "Multimedia Fusion" does make it sound like a MS PowerPoint equivalent.
Based on google's translation of the site, I get the impression MMF "Special" is just the same as MMF2 Standard, but with different box art and an extra disc containing loads of Japanese voice acting by some guy called Shirosawa Miyuki - and possibly something else to do with "POP"(?) aswell.
I never thought to click on the Japanese version when it popped up on the Clickteam website, purely for the fact I'm not Japanese (even thought I can read it) The Japanese site does look more commercial and I definately see who they're marketing towards. However I do think Japan (correct me if I'm wrong) has a bigger market for amateur/indie game developers.
Anytime I ever mentioned MMF2 to anyone, they immediately dismissed any credibility in what I had to say or show off because in their eyes it was just another cookie cutter game maker. So far from the truth - fix this Clickteam.
Agreed about the name, it's not very good. To me, "multimedia" is a term of the late 1990's and today it sounds dated. Google search trend has been steadily declining for that term for 7 years already. Plus it's long and doesn't communicate what the product is all about, as previous posters have pointed out.
The big question regarding the name is market segmentation and product positioning. Clickteam has made the correct decision with restoring the "Games Factory" brand for the lite/cheap/entry version of the product targeted for beginners. I think the whole user base of Click products have continously been separating to three more and more different segments: beginner developers, more advanced developers and schools etc. The situation is very different than what is was when they started with K&P. The choice for the name is dependant on which of these segments is considered the most important, or alternatively 2-3 different brands could be created (as they have done). If you target the beginners, there is not a better name than "Game Maker". This is just perfect (obviously taken). The Games Factory is pretty good as well. For more advance users, you need to position the product differently and communicate different values and higher quality. You should stay away of naming it to sound like a "toy". The price also plays a big role here. As weird as it might sound to you, higher price points can considerably help positioning the product correctly to selected segment and actually increase sales.
Originally Posted by Sketchy The name "Multimedia Fusion" does make it sound like a MS PowerPoint equivalent.
Based on google's translation of the site, I get the impression MMF "Special" is just the same as MMF2 Standard, but with different box art and an extra disc containing loads of Japanese voice acting by some guy called Shirosawa Miyuki - and possibly something else to do with "POP"(?) aswell.
I'm pretty sure her name is Sawashiro. (maybe.. I never know how to read names)
MMF Special just seems to be MMF (standard) with illustrations by an artist called POP and 150 voice samples by Miyuki Sawashiro included in the box. It costs an extra $15, or an extra $41 if you compare it to the download version of MMF.
Originally Posted by MJK Agreed about the name, it's not very good. To me, "multimedia" is a term of the late 1990's and today it sounds dated. Google search trend has been steadily declining for that term for 7 years already. Plus it's long and doesn't communicate what the product is all about, as previous posters have pointed out.
The big question regarding the name is market segmentation and product positioning. Clickteam has made the correct decision with restoring the "Games Factory" brand for the lite/cheap/entry version of the product targeted for beginners. I think the whole user base of Click products have continously been separating to three more and more different segments: beginner developers, more advanced developers and schools etc. The situation is very different than what is was when they started with K&P. The choice for the name is dependant on which of these segments is considered the most important, or alternatively 2-3 different brands could be created (as they have done). If you target the beginners, there is not a better name than "Game Maker". This is just perfect (obviously taken). The Games Factory is pretty good as well. For more advance users, you need to position the product differently and communicate different values and higher quality. You should stay away of naming it to sound like a "toy". The price also plays a big role here. As weird as it might sound to you, higher price points can considerably help positioning the product correctly to selected segment and actually increase sales.
well for something like mmf, the name still has to reflect the fact that it isn't game-centric; you can make general applications as well
this is also true to an extent with tgf but really isn't its focus so i guess that's appropriate
the prices of tgf/mmf aren't so bad (tgf is a bit high though given its fairly limited feature set [no 3rd-party extensions kills]), but with the number of bugs/workarounds/missing or unexposed functionality in even the base extensions...
Speaking of Promotion if you guys have not done so you can help promote by becoming fans of our Facebook page and maybe spread the word about it to your friends in your My Friends lists on Facebook.
What might be a great idea is what the japanese site is doing and have a special version of mmf 2 or tgf2 that has a special focus on gaming? First change the box cover art, more game related examples and music etc on the cd. And then promote that version in magazines and such, I wonder how that would go over?
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Originally Posted by Kisguri Speaking of Promotion if you guys have not done so you can help promote by becoming fans of our Facebook page and maybe spread the word about it to your friends in your My Friends lists on Facebook.
Indeed, the point is to get people outside the community to find the product in stores/online and be excited about it when they see it. The thing is WE know mmf2 is awesome, but gamers and the young folk still pick gamemaker above mmf2.. why is that? Goshdarnit
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I am a huge super fan of clickteam and the software it created, however I am also a fan of creating games in general, as such I am very hard on clickteam since I want them to get better. It would be saying you love music but you can only play one musical instrument to create the music you want. Its not personal.
Fact is clickteam can get fans/likes on facebook or have the daily click only cover clickteam stuff, thats only a small druplet in the overall game creation tool bucket, I am thinking bigger here, and I am only thinking that since the software deserves better and needs a bigger audience, the way clickteam is doing its promotion now is not good enough and needs to change, but I have been saying that for years. As such I am starting to believe clickteam is happy where its sitting now, getting enough sales to get by and it does not want to be the overall ruler in game creation anymore, and that kind of worries me.
Edited by an Administrator
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Originally Posted by -Adam- Rikus, I fail to see how you're helping them by opening TDC up to all game creation tools. Seems a tad hypocritical to show concern for them now...
Nice try. In reality, whether I'm for or against it, opening this place up to a wider audience and having all of our click knowledge/downloads/threads/users available to a game-making audience to glance at would do nothing but educate people out there what click products can really do and the power of the product we use. If they don't know klik, they're not going to give a damn about a klik-only site. Our game downloads make us a bit more relevant and certainly help to educate some people, at least. So it is, perhaps unsurprisingly, not hypocritical at all.
Originally Posted by Kisguri Speaking of Promotion if you guys have not done so you can help promote by becoming fans of our Facebook page and maybe spread the word about it to your friends in your My Friends lists on Facebook.
A facebook group will do very little in any meaningful sense; the amount of people you'll reach is negligible. If you want to start a concerted grassroots marketing campaign you're in pretty much the ideal market and environment to do so, which is really quite lucky. PM me if you'd like some contacts for marketing models - I've two people in my address book who do it for a living for very high-profile clients and one of them has talked to a friend of mine for free before.
If you're not going to focus on Klik products on this site, then don't call it the Daily Click. It makes sense for non-klik games to be on gamebuilder because its called "Gamebuilder" not "Klik Gamebuilder"
Actually just change the name in general, it sounds like an online newspaper.
Awesomeness is Watermelon.
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l、ﾞ ~ヽ
じしf_, )ノ
This is Koji. Copy and paste Koji to your sig so he can acheive world domination.
But don't you think you should choose one or the other? Now we are heading for a click community site on which user content is drowned in content from outside.
Actually right now the only content that is coming in from the outside is on the front page, the download page itself is looking pretty empty recently.
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Originally Posted by Rikus The admins had a huge debate about it on the admin forums and when it came to a vote, the vote to keep the daily click name got the most votes.
Like with deciding who becomes and admin, the members dont have a say in the matter or get to vote?
I'm against changing the name of the site simply because that's like erasing all the history that this site holds to the people who've been members for years. Honestly, why can't the download section be broken down by which program the game was made in?
It would be interesting to just click a section of games from each program and then have one main section with them combined. If anything that would increase competition for people to make higher quality games to settle the debate on which program is better by seeing which ones hold the top spots in ratings. At least that way people could still go and look at klik games that they recognize while also being able to view other games all on the same site.
Originally Posted by Rikus Indeed, the point is to get people outside the community to find the product in stores/online and be excited about it when they see it. The thing is WE know mmf2 is awesome, but gamers and the young folk still pick gamemaker above mmf2.. why is that? Goshdarnit
That really disturbs me too. I got the green light to start a gamemaking course at the school I work but TGF/MMF is just too expensive. They say "dude, Gamemaker is free, more popular AND Dutch!", failing too see those poor kids just don't understand a bit of Gamemaker. I want MMF 1.5 for schools!
MMF is a very good Tool with a little to low power and have to big differences with HWA to Standard MMF.
Differences is my problem from Standard mmf with angles of objects, i need rotate a 800x 800 pixel planet and this version (standard) rotate the planet only with 1.0 not with 0.1 value.
The defferences is bad for Flash and iphone applications and the next future exporters, clickteam fault with no fixed (improvement) the standard (no hwa) version.
Originally Posted by Hernan Yeah. I think most people would try Gamemaker first mainly because it's free. A free (but inferior) version of MMF could really help spread the word.
It could be like TGF2 but also include a limit on how big a file it will load or how big an application it will build. Also, it only builds Windows applications, no web applets or screensavers or anything special, has no Lacewing, and maybe you can't change the icon.
Yeah, that would really do the trick. Even when I can convince my bosses our school "really needs MMF", the students will still only be able to use it at school. A free light-edition would reach a whole new audience.
im really not seeing a problem in young people, i know manny people my age who use TGF2/MMF2 and ive even convinced some people to buy it/join the community
They could discount it to a tenner and certain competitors would still be free. Game Maker's a huge competitor with some really good branding (it just makes sense) and I also think the Construct clock is ticking and Clickteam shouldn't ignore it. I'm sure they're not.
They had the strongest marketing in the world back in the KNP days. But today, MMF's really not a good bargain.
It's like MS Word - it's easy to learn. It gives you results very fast. It's got an ugly, clumsy interface. It's the most expensive type of the product out there. And worst of all... the more you use it, the more workarounds you need to actually get something done.
Casual users will go for Game Maker because it's free. Or Construct if they're lazy because the MMF built-in movements are hopeless.
Hardcore indie game developers will go with Construct because it's free too. They'd do a little research and get scared off by how you can't do a lot of things without workarounds. Want to write a formula in the expression editor? Workaround. Heck, you even need a workaround for loops. MMF goes against common programming logic.
If they want to make money from it, they have to take the Microsoft approach - very aggressive marketing. That book one of the Clickteam members wrote is a good start. But they've got to be far more aggressive than they are now. Some better pricing would also help, maybe give a 75% discount or something. At this rate, MMF is going to be as outdated as AGS by next decade.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
I like the free TGF2 Lite/Limited idea, if this edition existed I would probably be using it for my games. And create some workshops around it. I've no intention of using other easy game creation products, although some might be a better fit for workshops.
But does Clickteam want improved sales? Because they would certainly come with some kind of price (or prize for us), better support and probably an up-to-date, rewritten version from MMF, which is called THE GAMES FACTORY THREE, because people create games with it! And not multimedia content. And they would need to spend lot's of time in order to accomplish this rewrite instead of just building upon their previous codebase. Meanwhile they need to create all of those amazing exporters at the same time.
O and by the way, just keep The Daily Click name. Just because people do some projects in non-klik, doesn't mean we should refocus the site. It's totally about klik and should stay that way, even when Clickteam gets extinct. And that's basically the reason why we need a free version of TGF/MMF, because we cannot fork the Clickteam code since it's not GPL-ed. If a free lite version won't be released, should we create it?
Could it be that gamemaker was created because of the exact same problem we're facing here? However gamemaker is a proprietary thing, the creators of construct did a better job by GPLling their game creator program.
Go to construct because they're lazy? Maybe you're right, but let's examine that for a second.
Firstly, Construct is beautiful and the interface is clear.
Secondly, MMF2 hides behind the fact that it can't pick multiple instances of the same objects by using "behaviors" (last time I checked) whereas Construct uses just one page of events and can pick objects ever so simply.
Thirdly, Construct is the most resource-efficient program I have ever worked with-
500-1000 5x5 objects fading out at one time? yup!
Fourthly(?), now specifically addressing what you said: Isn't it lazy to use anything other than programming languages like DarkBasic? Who gets to define what's lazy and what's not? I bet many programmers consider Click, and Construct and Gamemaker to be childish programs for lazy people. Heck, isn't it lazy of all of us to rarely make good games- or even finish crappy ones? I being the worst offender of this, I would have to pay people to play the only game I ever finished.
I'm not trying to say Construct is a better program, I'm saying it is what certain people prefer, not because they're lazy.
I certainly hope this poorly worded/planned post does not convey sourness.
In Click, it takes a lot of tutorials to pick it up. There's not that many start-off-from-scratch tutorials. There's a few custom platform engines and others out on the Internet but you have to work on them.
In Construct, just create a sprite, assign a few movements and you can get a decent game running. It's more work for someone moving from MMF to Construct to relearn the new system, but someone starting off from nothing will choose Construct, simply because it gives them 360 degree movement, platform engine, and physics in just a few clicks, compared to a few days in MMF.
So, for someone not eager to build their own custom engines or workarounds, between the two, Construct is the lazy choice
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
"I paid $150 for Multimedia Fusion 2 so it must be better."
But seriously, I've tried using Contrast 3 times and I've been very turned off by it. It's not even that it's unique and difficult to get used to, I've worked with real mainstream editors pretty fluidly including UnrealEd and Hammer and work with 3ds Max. Jumping to different interfaces and getting the job done isn't something I'm a stranger to.
However I will give Construct the benefit of the doubt by saying that it's probably difficult for me to make the switch because it is so similar in a lot of ways, but different in a lot of other ways.
The problem I have with this is that Construct seems to have ripped down the parts of MMF2 that actually worked really well and replaced them with larger more cumbersome methods to do stuff, which results in making immediately impressive stuff faster but simple stuff requires heavy workarounds. Sounds to me like it's priorities are backward.
Edit: Also, their decision to use the Ribbon interface was an absolutely horrible design choice in my honest opinion.
Look at all that empty space in the whole right side of the ribbon. I know MMF2 can be guilty of empty space, but that's only because it ran out of buttons to put there, not because it decided to stack them all up against the left and make a thick ugly ribbon. As far as I know, the interface is also not easily editable. The ribbon is a developers worst nightmare.
I personally use and love my widescreen monitor. Multimedia Fusion 2 can take advantage of the widescreen by adding the thicker toolbars to the left and right sides. Construct decides to bulk up it's horizontal menus and this is an absolutely horrible use and waste of screen real estate.
A few clicks... though I disagree, let's say that you're right for a moment.
Isn't it the objective of ClickTeam to make that possible? The idea of easy game making is not focused on wasting time and energy searching the internet for a workaround, but using your creativity to make a good game, is it not?
Also: I made the transition from Click to Construct very smoothly, it was not very difficult at all.
@ silverfire, the right and left ones are easy to dismiss, just click the little to the left of the close button, that way, they scroll open if you move the cursor to them. I have always liked the top area, it never annoyed me...
Could you give me an example of what you tried to do in construct that was difficult and required work-arounds?
The Construct vs MMF2 debate is pretty pointless, since they're so similar.
That's actually the biggest problem I have with Construct - the fact that it's a shameless rip-off.
Having said that, MMF2 is far too expensive, so I can't blame anyone for using Construct instead. For someone with no sense of loyalty to Clickteam (ie. those who haven't been kliking since KnP) it's a no-brainer, simply because Construct is free.
Originally Posted by 0ko @ silverfire, the right and left ones are easy to dismiss, just click the little to the left of the close button, that way, they scroll open if you move the cursor to them. I have always liked the top area, it never annoyed me...
Could you give me an example of what you tried to do in construct that was difficult and required work-arounds?
You completely missed what I was saying about screen real estate. The left and right docks are actually doing what they should be, using screen real estate properly... widescreen monitors thrive off of side docks. However that damn ribbon dock at the time is so thick and half of it is never used! Theres no point in having a dock that is that thick if everything you fit into the left side could be easily filled out across the whole dock and made thinner.
Ricky speaks truth. I never use TGF1 anymore, but it still astounds me that they were able to fit so much so well into that and then somehow spew it all over the screen as terribly as in MMF2.
I see what you're saying... but it's never bothered me.
I guess I'd be more frazzled if I did have a wide-screen monitor, though that's hardly a reason to spend $150 on the competition!
Oh well, I guess it just comes down to preference.
Actually it is... you have no idea how much screen real estate can be the biggest downfall of a piece of software and the Achilles heel for why I would never take a step near it. When something like a bad design choice can have such a profound impact on production, it's a big issue and frankly, Construct has a very sloppy interface.
While I think Construct's interface isn't designed that well, it's not too bad - especially when you minimize the ribbon bar. MMF2s interface is just as awfully designed.
Maybe I just got into the whole scene too early because I honestly have no clue what everyone is talking about with MMF2's "horrible" interface. I think it's fine.
Who needs to spend time and money rebranding products when you have a whole community of people willing to advertise your products for free? I imagine that our Japanese user base is quite small so it makes sense for clickteam to brand its products in an appropriate way to break into that market. If this change in strategy sees the Japanese version outperforming the English/French versions then I imagine Clickteam will see it in their interest to rebrand it.
Originally Posted by ~Matt Esch~ Who needs to spend time and money rebranding products when you have a whole community of people willing to advertise your products for free?
It wouldn't have been suggested if that free advertisement were enough.
If Clickteam are really underselling their products, isn't that a perfect opportunity for someone to come along and say "hey, I think I can make you more sales", and take a cut of the profit? If someone has a better idea then maybe they should cash in on it.
Nice to see the topic back on track after all that talk about about ribbons!
Personally I found out about K&P after seeing it in a retail store, then The Games Factory in a magazine advertisement, both strategies that Clickteam don't seem to do anymore. Not saying they should, of course; the market has changed quite a bit since 1995, but it would be nice to see them advertise the game creating potential of MMF2/TGF2 rather than focus on the education sector, and update their website to not look so boring. There I said it!
Then again I do think focusing on education IS good advertisement, if it's done right. What is better than exposing 25 students to a Click product and teaching them the basics?
Sorry, I should've said "as well as" instead of "rather than". I wasn't thinking Selling to schools is a good idea, I'd just like to see them also promoting the games side of it more.
Originally Posted by SiLVERFIRE Maybe I just got into the whole scene too early because I honestly have no clue what everyone is talking about with MMF2's "horrible" interface. I think it's fine.
Everyone who moved from KNP or TGF into MMF felt a jarring shift. I was learning VB at the time, and I thought VB had a nicer interface. I got used to it after like a week, though.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
We could try to guess the reason, that would be fun
Moved from KnP to TGF and moved on to java, basically because I like writing a textfile and transforming that textfile with game assets into an executable.
The underselling is probably due to some goals from clickteam in the way they want to run their business. Like for instance: be a small company, do everything ourselves, etc...
Originally Posted by 0ko Go to construct because they're lazy? Maybe you're right, but let's examine that for a second.
Firstly, Construct is beautiful and the interface is clear.
Secondly, MMF2 hides behind the fact that it can't pick multiple instances of the same objects by using "behaviors" (last time I checked) whereas Construct uses just one page of events and can pick objects ever so simply.
Thirdly, Construct is the most resource-efficient program I have ever worked with-
500-1000 5x5 objects fading out at one time? yup!
Fourthly(?), now specifically addressing what you said: Isn't it lazy to use anything other than programming languages like DarkBasic? Who gets to define what's lazy and what's not? I bet many programmers consider Click, and Construct and Gamemaker to be childish programs for lazy people. Heck, isn't it lazy of all of us to rarely make good games- or even finish crappy ones? I being the worst offender of this, I would have to pay people to play the only game I ever finished.
I'm not trying to say Construct is a better program, I'm saying it is what certain people prefer, not because they're lazy.
I certainly hope this poorly worded/planned post does not convey sourness.
I don't neccesarilly agree with all the points you made but now you got me interested in construct. Great job. Anyways, I don't want to change the name from the Daily Click, I want the site to re-evaluate its focus on Klik products. And Adam's right, (can't believe I said that) we the members should have a vote in what goes on. That's why I prefer Gamebuilder. There aren't any admin forums or secret stuff. (Except PMs) Also it allows members to post their own news. Which is cool.
Awesomeness is Watermelon.
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This is Koji. Copy and paste Koji to your sig so he can acheive world domination.
Admins and moderators have a clear role, don't they? They should admnistrate and moderate the site, board, check news and other stuff. But off course these tasks could be regulated by the community in some kind of clever implementation and power for the users. However I am posting a little bit off topic.
That's more than a little off topic. I suppose if you wanted to continue that conversation for whatever reason, you could go make a new thread, but TDC isn't really the home of MMF or the reason it "isn't selling."
The way I got to know about KNP was that I searched for game making tools when I was like 9. Back then they had proper advertising so it wasn't hard at all, one search and bam. Sadly I heard the publisher treated them like crap so they will probably never get in touch with those again...
Oh anyway; later on I stumbled upon games made in TGF which had that info box at the end. These are not games I got from a click community site either. It could be a game from a monthly PC magazine, from a gaming site and sometimes even personal sites. Also to note is that it was not until I looked up TGF that I realized it was a "KNP2", later on I heard about MMF and click communities.
So the only good advertising alternative for Clickteam I can think of is to upload your games everywhere you can(note: this means sites other than click communities, people who do not know about TGF/MMF/etc is very unlikely to come here and check out the games). Include the MMF2 logo somewhere, maybe throw in a little more info about it or just make sure that you state in the download description what tools you used. If people were impressed by your game they might look up Clickteam and check out their software(if they are at all interested in making games that is).
Originally Posted by chrilley So the only good advertising alternative for Clickteam I can think of is to upload your games everywhere you can(note: this means sites other than click communities, people who do not know about TGF/MMF/etc is very unlikely to come here and check out the games). Include the MMF2 logo somewhere, maybe throw in a little more info about it or just make sure that you state in the download description what tools you used. If people were impressed by your game they might look up Clickteam and check out their software(if they are at all interested in making games that is).
Yes. But this should be managed systematically by the company. Not like "we wish that you guys would put our logo to your games", that's not way to do it effectively (IMHO, just stating my own view about it). There must be an incentive for clickers to do so. I know it's a real challenge to implement in practice for a small company, but it's no rocket science either...X% share of brought MMF2 sales go to the developer.
There's a plenty of great advertising space available in all the Click games, especially when the new runtimes (flash, iPhone) will grow the reachable install base to literally hundreds of millions. Clickteam would be able to "buy" these marketing spots actually from its own customers much cheaper than from some external advertising network. It's sort of "own media" for CT to be used to generate traffic to their store. Referral tracking is obviously a challenge, but it has been done before.
Of course some entry-level or free product variant (i.e. TGF) could use a forced default logo/link model, but from those games not that many will reach huge audiences, so the key is really how to do it in case of MMF. Of course conversion rates would be really low, because only a small part of gamers are in the target segment for CT, but with hundreds of games a year, to hundreds of millions of consumers, even a tiny little ratio can make a considerable impact on the sales.
It's interesting to have this discussion and share thoughts. Quite frankly, I hate the policy of the official CT forum where they lock each topic that goes into areas like this. Or some speculation of the future features of MMF2 (runtimes), everything gets locked. And the section is called "OPEN topic community forum"... at one point I was actually laughing at this when all the most interesting topics that I followed and for which I visited the site were locked. Unbelievable.
You mentioned those popups that used to appear when you closed a game made in TGF1 - that's actually something they could bring back (at least for the standard version of MMF2 and/or TGF2).
Except they should make it look more professional and less intrusive - maybe just an attractive loading screen with the message "made using MMF2/Clickteam" or "fueled by fusion" or whatever.
I got started with the click community through KNP which was given away as a cover disc on a magazine. I actually bought the magazine because of the Cover Disc.
I then moved onto TGF again because of a Cover Disc which came with a fully licensed version of TGF. When MMF2 came out i bought it and haven't looked back.
I agree with some of the comments about construct, i have downloaded it recently and i found it rather awkward to navigate round. it took me at least 5 minutes to get a working bat and ball on screen. Add the mous and keyboard controls into your project??? I don't think so, i would rather they were included straight away.
Construct also lacks things like flags from what i can see, but i digress from the actual point of this topic.
CT/IMSI/Europress made a good job of their advertising and as such i am using MMF2 today, without those coverdiscs i probably would never have heard of Clickteam and would never have joined this site.
I also started Kliking back in the days when KnP was actually marketed - I saw a review of it in PC Format, I believe.
Re: Clickteam & Educational products -
This is the program they should have been making to get the kids hooked on Klik during school classes: http://scratch.mit.edu/
It has the same basic interface as MMF, but it's simpler, and has better presentation that will actually appeal to kids (it's aimed at 8-16 yr olds).
Originally Posted by Sketchy You mentioned those popups that used to appear when you closed a game made in TGF1 - that's actually something they could bring back (at least for the standard version of MMF2 and/or TGF2).
Except they should make it look more professional and less intrusive - maybe just an attractive loading screen with the message "made using MMF2/Clickteam" or "fueled by fusion" or whatever.
TGF2 has a splash screen when you quit the application.
I agree with all points Digitalic makes; Clickteam clearly isn't doing enough for their awesome softwares. I certainly hope Clickteam takes all of these points into account and will do something about them. Ever since TDC turned more into an indie site instead of a more klik-based site, it seems more new users have been coming (I still miss Mitch). If Clickteam updated their site, I would assume it would attract more users.
If there is so much concern for this, why doesn't the community get together and advertise Multimedia Fusion? I am sure there is a lot of material that can be used to demonstrate the capabilities of Multimedia Fusion (and The Games Factory). I am also sure there is enough talent within the community to properly SEO such a website. Personally I don't see why I would want to burden Clickteam with complaints about their advertising and marketing strategies when it makes very little difference to me as a user of their products. All it will do is divert attention away from production on features I am extremely keen to see released, such as an Android runtime.
But it's really not our job. I like Clickteam and all, but it's not our job to do their business. I also like Starbucks but I wouldn't mop their floors for them (nor "Like" them on Facebook.)
As a supporter of Clickteam and a daily user of MMF, our concerns come mainly from frustration; we all know that Clickteam are sitting on a small wonder of a product but they don't seem to want to market it much, all the while other products are attracting users. Some suggestions wouldn't even cost money (only time) to implement: a free, feature-limited MMF demo; a greater emphasis on user-created games on Clickteam's website, for example.
Clickteam are probably doing quite well financially, but I believe they could be doing so much better, and more importantly, more could be done to ensure that other products don't run away with potential MMF users. Sure, we can help by doing what we can to spread the word but I sure hope they have a better marketing strategy than that.
I see YoYoGames, with its community and integrated GameMaker product/showcase/community website. I'm not saying we need to have everything that everyone else has, but even a hint of some movement in that direction would be nice. Right now there's a company site with a forum, and a community site (this one) that's 99% coded and paid for by one guy.
Well for one, time is money. Obviously I don't disagree with (many of) the statements made by people expressing how much potential there is in the click products, I just fail to understand why people have such a personal interest in its success. You are right nim, mopping the floors in Starbucks is of no benefit to you at all, but I am also guessing you wouldn't provide a free "consultation" on how to best market their products either, which is essentially what's going on here. I can only see people getting frustrated because they want to see this community grow bigger, which explains why people might have a personal interest in how well Click products do in comparison to the competition. If this is the case then why isn't promoting Clickteam's products a fair suggestion? You can promote Clickteam in your own interest, and yes in many ways that is doing Clickteam's work, but it would first and foremost be an attempt to increase numbers in the community. Personally I care more about the state of the products than the state of their image. I would implement new features for my own benefit; just look at how many people write extensions for MMF2 and release them for free. If you care about the number of people taking up Clickteam's products there is something you can do about it other than aimlessly moaning about it on a forum.
Moreover, I am sure Clickteam are not completely stupid, and who really knows what future plans they have? I don't know what Clickteam's business strategies are, but I am sure they exist, and I would give them enough credit to believe they have thoughts to the same effect. For all we know they could already be developing a new image, they are just waiting for something to launch it with. Either way this makes no difference to me as a user of their products.
Promoting just requires some good games which have been made with a click product and some kind of huge billboard screaming the product that has been used for the creation Really loved that promotion screen after closing a knp or tgf app
In order to something like yoyogames, tdc needs a fusion with clickteam But why being a copycat, apart from the fact that clickteam might never do such a thing?
Anyways I am ratling, perhaps the original thread starter, Digitalic, could create a good looking UK site and offer that to clickteam. That would sure make him happy, but probably not clickteam because they show less interest in this area.
Let them just create good products and let us use them.
Originally Posted by ~Matt Esch~ I just fail to understand why people have such a personal interest in its success. I can only see people getting frustrated because they want to see this community grow bigger, which explains why people might have a personal interest in how well Click products do in comparison to the competition. If this is the case then why isn't promoting Clickteam's products a fair suggestion? You can promote Clickteam in your own interest, and yes in many ways that is doing Clickteam's work, but it would first and foremost be an attempt to increase numbers in the community. Personally I care more about the state of the products than the state of their image. I would implement new features for my own benefit; just look at how many people write extensions for MMF2 and release them for free. If you care about the number of people taking up Clickteam's products there is something you can do about it other than aimlessly moaning about it on a forum.
Moreover, I am sure Clickteam are not completely stupid, and who really knows what future plans they have? I don't know what Clickteam's business strategies are, but I am sure they exist, and I would give them enough credit to believe they have thoughts to the same effect. For all we know they could already be developing a new image, they are just waiting for something to launch it with. Either way this makes no difference to me as a user of their products.
Of course Clickteam does what's best for them. We don't have to know their plans to discuss our own ideas. I don't see any reason why community members could not share thoughts and improvement ideas if that's what is in their interests. Freedom of speech.
Actually, this topic, even though it has certain critic towards Clickteam, is a favor for them - or that how it should be perceived. It's full of ideas and user feedback. There is NOTHING in this topic that harms their way of doing this. It's only helping. (though I'm not sure if they are listening because these threads get locked immediately at their own forum. Hopefully they don't consider feedback as "moaning"...not that great of an attitude). Most companies pay for consumer feedback to improve their offerings! Clickteam is lucky to have a very active and loyal - though a bit small in volume - customer base who are concerned about everything that relates to their activities.
It's everybody's benefit if the user base expands due to better marketing and business development. That will mean more resources to further development of the software and will eventually benefit everyone of us. If business is bad, there might not be another MMF, ever. I have spent 1000 euros on click products and looking forward to spend another... and I think I'm entitled to express my opinion about it.
"Don't moan here - go promoting instead" - I'm sorry but this is total blahblahblah. Nothing will ever come out of this kind of hobbyist thinking. The sales impact with this will be nothing but peanuts. If you run a business, you need to look at marketing much more systematically than like "hey, here's our great product, hopefully our customers will tell everybody about it *fingers crossed*. Marketing is an investment, not a wishing well.
Of course Clickteam does what's best for them. We don't have to know their plans to discuss our own ideas. I don't see any reason why community members could not share thoughts and improvement ideas if that's what is in their interests. Freedom of speech.
Who was suggesting the latter?
"Don't moan here - go promoting instead" - I'm sorry but this is total blahblahblah. Nothing will ever come out of this kind of hobbyist thinking.
Ok, lets all discuss marketing opportunities like we are experts and tell Clickteam how to run their business like that isn't some kind of "hobbyist thinking". Nobody is suggesting that the potential we have to make Click products more widely used is comparable to the power Clickteam has over that, but I think we can still make a positive impact rather than fruitlessly talking about it. I think the general message was fairly clear by the time the topic was locked. By all means express your opinion, but you could at least try to do something to help if you are concerned. I think outright rejecting the potential we have as a community to influence numbers resonates with the general downtrodden tone of this conversation.
A simple contribution like putting a page on this website introducing the click products to new users and SEO-ing that would address the "why don't click products show up on a google search for...". Either that would make a positive impact, or as you suggested, the sales impact will be "nothing but peanuts", in which case it was a poor point to make. Also more people could put the fueled by fusion (or something else if you think it's better) logos in their games to promote the tool. Criticising and making suggestions to Clickteam that benefit us all just isn't fair if we aren't prepared to help in a proactive manner. Sorry for trying to be the slightest bit positive.
Originally Posted by 0ko "Promoting just requires some good games which have been made with a click product"
Loads of awesome (and proffesional) games have been created with click products... trying to say Construct is decent earlier on, then laughing at that statement just makes you look even more foolish. Grow up.
One game that never ceases to amaze me no matter how long after I come back, was Eternal Daughter. Maybe it's because it was released at an impressionable age for me, but that game still drives a certain level of aw and respect from me, especially now that I'm old enough to understand and play it without complaining that it was too hard. I really enjoy it.
Ok, lets all discuss marketing opportunities like we are experts and tell Clickteam how to run their business like that isn't some kind of "hobbyist thinking".
Well, just to highlight that I'm not telling anybody to do anything. I'm just providing my thoughts, ideas and suggestions. Clickteam does what's best for them - my comments cannot harm their business in any way. And I do online sales business development as my profession, so I have a lot of opinions to share. Obviously there is criticism, but that shouldn't be viewed as so negative thing and something that hurts Clickteam or this community somehow.
I think we can still make a positive impact rather than fruitlessly talking about it.
Our views differ quite a bit. You are looking at this from a grass-root level. I'm trying to think a bit bigger on how the volumes really could be scaled up massively and not just like "5 more dev copies sold!!", if that would be the goal someday. Of course "every little helps", there IS naturally a positive impact (if not in sales, but awareness) if I put huge (and high quality) Clickteam ads to all of my games, sure. But that is not sustainable way to do it, you have to give all developers a real concrete incentive to do this, and systematically manage this sort of activity. I'm not saying the community shouldn't advertise Click products on their own time, but I strongly disagree that this would be some game-changing long term solution to rely on, IF the target is to really raise MMF where it belongs, i.e. more popular than Game Maker or any other directly competing piece of software. And I'm pretty damn sure Clickteam wouldn't mind that position. That's where these guys belong, they deserve more. You can criticize and still be positive, you know.. everyone of us wants CT to thrive.
Criticising and making suggestions to Clickteam that benefit us all just isn't fair if we aren't prepared to help in a proactive manner.
Making suggestions and giving feedback = helping. This thread has a lot of useful input for Clickteam, for example the name discussion that some people had a few pages back. The name is a simple and easy-to-change element which is of course only one detail but can really make a difference. Much bigger difference than "Fueled by Fusion" randomly somewhere in 100 click games.
How does a customer in general help a company conducting business? By purchasing their products, simple as that. The price tag should cover not only direct product costs but also marketing costs. So when I have paid 1000 euros, I have helped quite a lot in promoting the product. So please do not tell me that I haven't done my share.
Well GameMaker has some really hit titles going for it right now, I'm thinking of Spelunky specifically.
Now if you dive a bit into how that game was made it actually looks like Derek Yu got a lot of different resources together (the engine was already coded by someone else is the biggest example), drew the graphics and put it all together into an amazing fun game that really took off. How many people tried out GameMaker after playing Spelunky? I'm guessing a whole lot.
Why can't we do something similar here? How many of you can code your asses off but can't draw? How many of you can compose music but still use the default platform movement for your stuff?
Get 5 or 6 really talented people together to come up with the next MMF2 "mega game", watch it take off and the interested people should come back to Clickteam / TDC. That's probably the best way for Clickteam to get more interested people showing up and buying their products.
In theory of course, I'm sure it won't be easy.
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Originally Posted by Jenswa I've no idea which product is better, probably MMF So why is everyone going for gamemaker? They must have some added value we lack or something.
The Games Factory 2 $59
Multimedia Fusion 2 $119
Multimedia Fusion 2 Developer $369
Gmae Maker 8 FREE
Game Maker Pro $25
- Ok, you must admit that was the most creative cussing this site have ever seen -
I really do think that CT's website reflects MMF very well..... both are hopelessly outdated. We got flash this year, while it has been the standard for numerous years already. MMF still lacks true isometrics, while everyone else had it for 10 years. 3D? You've got to go through a lot of hoops to get it done, while everyone else had it for years. Compression..... way behind everyone else, so you end of with way too large games. Should I continue?
The website reflects MMF perfectly well, it's an application from the past, always lagging a few years behind the rest, getting everything years too late.
Originally Posted by GameFun4U I really do think that CT's website reflects MMF very well..... both are hopelessly outdated. We got flash this year, while it has been the standard for numerous years already. MMF still lacks true isometrics, while everyone else had it for 10 years. 3D? You've got to go through a lot of hoops to get it done, while everyone else had it for years. Compression..... way behind everyone else, so you end of with way too large games. Should I continue?
The website reflects MMF perfectly well, it's an application from the past, always lagging a few years behind the rest, getting everything years too late.
I find that a little extreme. Flash has not been the only standard for games, it is not that hard to code iso stuff in MMF, 3D is coming and most people here won't use it, I never ended up with large games.
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Really loved that promotion screen after closing a knp or tgf app 
But why being a copycat, apart from the fact that clickteam might never do such a thing?
So please do not tell me that I haven't done my share.
