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Fifth

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1st March, 2007 at 16:24:12 -

So, when a click project becomes complex enough, it's generally advantageous to start making editors to speed up and organize the design aspects, right? of course, the most common type would be the level editor, but perhaps people make editors for other things as well?

I made this topic chiefly out of curiosity. Is it commonplace to make an editor for one's game? Or is it easier, for the most part, to simply make levels straight in the click program's frame editor?

And for those who make editors for their games, are there limits to what types of games get an editor? I'd imagine stage-based puzzle games would be the most popular candidates for editors, but how common are editors for other genres, like platformers? And how similar would editors be made by different people? Would they end up with similar layouts and functionality?

So the point of this topic is that if you've made an editor (level or otherwise), show it off! Post some screenshots of it in an editor-worthy state!

And here's a screen-stretching shot from the editor for "Nothing" to start things off:
Image

 
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DaVince

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1st March, 2007 at 16:56:08 -

Sweet editor!

I tried making an editor in my early days and horribly failed. Don't need to make one at the moment.

 
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Fifth

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1st March, 2007 at 17:33:12 -

Yarr, the text blitter method kinda needs an editor to work.
But they compliment each other really well, so I'm not complaining.

 
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Silveraura

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1st March, 2007 at 17:53:05 -

Image
I designed my editor for a couple of reasons, none of which really include game complexity, because Diamond: Revolution 2 isn't complex enough to need a personalized editor.

I made a level editor 1, because external levels will mean less in-game frames and lower game size. The other reason would be the demand for a nice editor, I wanted to give people the ability to create their own levels if they wanted to, once they beat the game. Even share levels with each other.
Absolutely nothing about my level editor is truly unique though, just simple point and click.

 
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X_Sheep

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2nd March, 2007 at 03:11:02 -

Image

This be the level editor for Blockguy 2. I plan on having users make levels as well, but in such a way that they can't edit the built-in levels or replace them with their own. Well, not without screwing the game up
You may notice that all walls look the same. The fun part is that when levels are loaded in the main game, the appropriate tile is automatically added (for floors or ceiling or whatever). So the level creators don't have to worry about having to set the right tile everywhere to prevent their levels from getting all ugly and stuff.
The editor graphics are all placeholders.

 
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axel

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2nd March, 2007 at 08:01:10 -

That is an awesome editor, Fifth. I usually don't make editors for my games. I do have the knowledge and skillz to make one, but not the patience

 
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David Newton (DavidN)

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2nd March, 2007 at 09:03:22 -

Making an editor is always a balance between making the game extensible and how much work you can be bothered to put into it. I've made one for a project that was meant to be based around an online database of user-submitted levels - this has actually been shelved for now, but I was really proud of the Preview feature.

Image

Image

Image Edited by the Author about eight times to get our mad IMG tag working

Image Edited by the Author.

 
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axel

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2nd March, 2007 at 09:22:54 -

You forgot to close the B tag

 
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3rd March, 2007 at 04:29:03 -

Here's my one for Gauntlet Runner, I'm planning on using a grid based one for Gauntlet Runner 2, because moving blocks pixel by pixel is VERY ANNOYING... I haven't got the array loading done yet but everything else is going alright . But I do like this system as it allows for a certain level of easy after you get used to it. Damn I wrote way more than I meant to... And contradicted my self several times.

Image

Image Edited by the Author.

 
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3rd March, 2007 at 05:23:11 -

I usually only make level-editors for nonscrolling games only. x)

 

MasterM



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3rd March, 2007 at 10:01:49 -

Fifth
your editor made me come in my pants
its impressive
makes me think of Cave Story for C64

 
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Hempuli

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3rd March, 2007 at 12:51:55 -

I'll post screenshots fron MY level editor when it's ready!

 
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Neuro

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5th March, 2007 at 09:35:30 -

I started making my first level editor a few days ago, it's a lot simpler than I thought! I can already see the benefits. Keeping your game to a single frame definitely helps a lot, and the fact that you've already made a level editor makes it really easily to implement into the game you're making

I don't know whether I'll finish and release the game I made this for, but the editor is taking shape, and functions well on a basic level

Image

Image Edited by the Author.

 
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Lukas Hägg



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5th March, 2007 at 18:19:54 -

That looks like an awesome editor Fifth. Are you able to make levels exceding the limit of MMF (20000x20000 pixels) with your editor/engine? I've found that the levels for my game will be big, I have one level planned that will probably be over 90000 pixels at least, and I'd like it to be seamless. I was thinking maybe it would be a smart move making an editor if I can get it to let me make levels larger than 20000x20000.

Image Edited by the Author.

Image Edited by the Author.

 
Mendokuse...

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5th March, 2007 at 18:31:38 -

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a62/Peblo/editor.png

 
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5th March, 2007 at 18:32:30 -

Best editor yet Pebs

 
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Fifth

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5th March, 2007 at 19:03:31 -

Peblo's is certainly the most versatile of the bunch.

Anyway, Lukas, the way I've got it set up, no actual frame-scrolling occurs in the game, so the frame-size limit doesn't apply. Instead, everything is loaded on a page-based system (each full screen is a page, and four of them are read at one time), and, since I'm using one byte to store each of the level's dimensions, I can get up to 256 pages in each direction (although I haven't actually made any levels that big, so for all I know it might start acting strange after 128.)

So 256 by 256 pages, pixel-wise, is... *gets out calculator* 81920 by 61440 pixels.

'Course, if you really needed the room, you could add another byte to each dimension, getting... 65536 pages and 20971520 pixels across.

So it'd definitely be possible to get levels that large. It's just a matter of pulling it off.

Image Edited by the Author.

 
Go Moon!

Bibin

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6th March, 2007 at 00:57:26 -

Image

Shitty but effective editor for Definitly Not a Tanooji Game.

Image Edited by the Author.

 
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Eternal Man [EE]

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6th March, 2007 at 15:58:52 -

I have a question regarding all of your editors, in which format do you save your levels and why? Personally, I like to use .txt files.

 
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Tim

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6th March, 2007 at 16:09:08 -

As you can pretty much generally make up the filetype it varies from game to game. If your game was called Pac-Man I'd assume the extension would be .pml for 'pac-man level'... It doesn't really matter but that's what people generally like to do

 
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6th March, 2007 at 19:48:18 -

your editor looks awesome!

 
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Hempuli

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7th March, 2007 at 01:40:57 -

Once I made a level editor whose level files were called level1.thisisthebestgameintheworld. And it worked.

 
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8th March, 2007 at 01:42:45 -

I tend to use .lvl but it can called anything even .phizzy

 
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8th March, 2007 at 04:48:55 -

I'd be too scared to have mini Phizzlets running around my documents.

 
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8th March, 2007 at 06:49:36 -

And only ever a clump of tissue Sorry - you had that one coming

 
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Hempuli

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8th March, 2007 at 08:25:35 -

MY first (almos) GOOD editor looks like:
http://koti.mbnet.fi/arvitei/screenie37.PNG
http://koti.mbnet.fi/arvitei/screenie38.PNG
(Those screenies are too big to enter here)

 
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8th March, 2007 at 08:28:21 -

ooo that looks pretty cool!

 
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DaVince

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8th March, 2007 at 09:46:04 -

Looks neat.

The seperate tileset window reminds me of the other game creation system I use - Sphere. Nice.

 
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8th March, 2007 at 12:52:32 -

I'll post a pic of mine later.
It does not look good at all, but it's a damn good editor x)

 

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12th March, 2007 at 14:59:41 -

Here's the one from the game I'm currently working on.

Image

It's not pretty, but it gets the job done.

 
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nim



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12th March, 2007 at 20:49:25 -

This is the engine for a game I just released. No menus here - just mouse clicks to plot tiles, cursor keys to scroll around the level and other keyboard commands for other misc crap, like playing ff7chocobo.mid while I work. Worst editor ever, I know, but I had to make it in about two evenings.

And ain't she a beauty! :

Image

 
//

nim



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12th March, 2007 at 21:18:59 -

All of the other editors are looking great, especially the first one by Fifth!

In response to Eternal Entertainment, I guess there are only 2 methods you could use: recording the values in an ini file, or using an array.

If making an editor is not your thing, then you could derive the level layout from a small gif image, or, if it's a single screen game, "draw" the level layout in a text file with numbers, e.g.

1="1000000001"
2="1000000001"
3="1999999991"

(where 1 equals walls and 9 equals, like, crocodiles)

Really though, I think most people will agree that using arrays would be the best system to use. inis are okay but everyone will laugh at you and it's a switch you'll have to make eventually. Think underpants to boxer shorts.

 
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13th March, 2007 at 09:24:44 -

Arrays work a lot better, especially for externally loaded tilesets.

 
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Eternal Man [EE]

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13th March, 2007 at 09:31:48 -

?
I'm not using inis. I use in-game textfiles, it's bad for patches since you need to update the whole application and not only the levels, but it's good in the way that the player can never now if he has found all areas and such since their's not any external files to tip the player off. But I agree on arrays probably being the most suitable object for the task. And alas, I too will, in time, switch to boxers...

Image Edited by the Author.

 
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axel

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13th March, 2007 at 09:33:34 -

Yeah, but arrays waste much more space just to store a few numbers.

The last editor I made (for a game I never finished anyway) would load a normal text file, where each ASCII character represented one tile. Then, I just used String Parser to get the ASCII index of that character, and plotted the corresponding tile to that position.

Image Edited by the Author.

 
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13th March, 2007 at 16:29:38 -

This thread makes me feel great, because now I know I really DO have a life.

 
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Tim

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13th March, 2007 at 16:57:22 -

That's it's purpose

 
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DeadmanDines

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13th March, 2007 at 18:56:21 -

I mainly use editors when I need additional power from MMF. For example, having different sounds when you walk over certain tiles, or making some tiles carry your scent (grass) and some not (water).

I really feel like making another editor just as a chance to develop some interface ideas I've had recently.

 
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14th March, 2007 at 00:33:55 -

I didn't realise until now that making an editor was usefull for making your own game. I though people only used it for players to make custom levels.

So as you can guess from that, ive never made one before.

 
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14th March, 2007 at 03:10:22 -

Yeah, but arrays waste much more space just to store a few numbers.
Not, as I've said before, if you structure your data properly. Given that we know the exact size of each element it's possible to parse your data so that multiple values are stored in each cell, effectively producing a 3+-dimensional array without the control data you usually need in text-based storage. In an ideal implementation, this approach could very well produce smaller files than a text system.

Of course you can create simple vector-style text-based storage without control data, but it would be next to impossible to manipulate manually so there wouldn't be any real advantage to it.

 
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axel

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14th March, 2007 at 08:34:58 -

Sure, you could optimize the array system. But why take crap and make gold out of it? Besides, the average klikker can't be arsed (and doesn't know how) to do that anyway.

Image Edited by the Author.

 
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Eternal Man [EE]

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14th March, 2007 at 10:13:00 -

Just how big is an array anyway? It sounds like they're hugh, but I know they're not. So confusing...

 
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DaVince

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14th March, 2007 at 12:59:00 -

An array can be any size you give it.

 
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15th March, 2007 at 02:52:30 -

axel: Writing a parsed array system requires exactly the same amount of effort as a parsed text engine, and has the added functionality of being an array.

And if your criticism is that the 'average klikker' is disinclined to do something like that, the same could be said of caring about size wasted with vanilla arrays.

 
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Eternal Man [EE]

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16th March, 2007 at 07:36:50 -

DaVince: Not cell size, kb size. An empty array, how big?

 
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16th March, 2007 at 20:41:15 -

Depends on the dimensions.

 
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Eternal Man [EE]

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16th March, 2007 at 20:43:52 -

Okay, say an empty 10x10 array.

 
Eternal Entertainment's Code'n'Art Man

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16th March, 2007 at 20:49:52 -

430 bytes. Doesn't matter whether it's empty or not.

 
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Eternal Man [EE]

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16th March, 2007 at 20:57:46 -

Ok!


 
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alastair john jack

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22nd March, 2007 at 21:45:08 -

I wonder what Podunkian's underside editor looks like

 
lol

Hempuli

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26th March, 2007 at 10:31:15 -

me too. PODUNKIAN, SHOW YOURSELF!

 
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Paul_James



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26th March, 2007 at 15:41:51 -

hey i gotta ask u guys a question
when ur loading active objects from ur level editor's such as enemy or foreground
does it require different code then u do for backdrops???

 
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26th March, 2007 at 19:01:45 -

You can't assign code / events with backdrops..? :\

 
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vortex2



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26th March, 2007 at 19:46:16 -

Wow didn't think I would have a chance to show this to everyone . This screenshot is from a long dead project that I was working on called TLD.

Image

Enjoy .

Image Edited by the Author.

 
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27th March, 2007 at 01:07:40 -

well using a tile system doesnt mean that u cant make really nice big backgrounds, it would take a large amount of artistic skill or just taking one of ur large backgrounds as is - and just cutting it up into watever tile size ur using (ie 16x16)

 
Its not enough,I need more
Not enough to satisify
I said I dont want it, I just need it.
To believe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

Knuckle deep beneath the borderlines.
This may hurt a little but its something you'll get used to.
Relax. Slip Away...

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27th March, 2007 at 04:43:48 -

yeah it would be cool to see what Podunkian's underside editor looks like

 
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27th March, 2007 at 04:59:19 -

Indeed! Pod where are you D: I wanna knoowwwww and how he loads the levels too, eg textblitter or what.

 
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Tim

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You've Been Circy'd!Clickzine StaffSilverNova MemberVIP MemberTurtle Power!Evil klikerWii OwnerHero of TimeGhostbuster!Pokemon Ball!
27th March, 2007 at 09:38:43 -

You don't NEED to have a level editor program to make levels ¬_¬ Meaning I wouldn't blame Pod for not having one seeing as you can just copy frames and replace sprites. No harm done IMO Level editing is more for players than it is for developers.

Also, I call JFrudy to post his AMAZING isometric level editor here... It, is, NICE

 
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Paul_James



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27th March, 2007 at 09:55:25 -

i dont know tim, i think a level editor is for developers can be very useful. For one you can actually program an entire game just using one Frame in MMF but loading different external levels - and u can save all those external levels to one array using the Z dimension
plus it makes a grid system easier to build faster - using MMF level editor can be tedious especially when u want it pixel perfect - ctrl+v, click with mouse, hold arrow key till u get in the right position

 
Its not enough,I need more
Not enough to satisify
I said I dont want it, I just need it.
To believe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

Knuckle deep beneath the borderlines.
This may hurt a little but its something you'll get used to.
Relax. Slip Away...

DaVince

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Game of the Week WinnerClickzine StaffHas Donated, Thank You!Cardboard BoxDos Rules!
27th March, 2007 at 09:59:50 -

Pod did use a level editor. There are some levels you can enter where there's nothing but emptyness, proving that the level file in there was probably not found.

 
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28th March, 2007 at 05:47:42 -

They're all loaded from arrays tim, AND pod said he would release the level editor he used to us, so I presume he has one.

 
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DaVince

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Game of the Week WinnerClickzine StaffHas Donated, Thank You!Cardboard BoxDos Rules!
28th March, 2007 at 05:49:52 -

"plus it makes a grid system easier to build faster - using MMF level editor can be tedious especially when u want it pixel perfect - ctrl+v, click with mouse, hold arrow key till u get in the right position"

Snap to grid feature in MMF2. I used it for Blue Dude, it's pretty useful.

 
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Eternal Man [EE]

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Game of the Week WinnerHero of TimeLOL SignI am an April Fool
28th March, 2007 at 10:24:55 -

Snap to grid feature in ALL MMFs.

 
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...actually Ell Endie, but whatever.
Image
Image

DaVince

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Game of the Week WinnerClickzine StaffHas Donated, Thank You!Cardboard BoxDos Rules!
28th March, 2007 at 10:26:01 -

k, wasn't sure about that.

 
Old member (~2004-2007).

Paul_James



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28th March, 2007 at 15:50:34 -

nevermind figured it out
wow hahah

Image Edited by the Author.

 
Its not enough,I need more
Not enough to satisify
I said I dont want it, I just need it.
To believe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

Knuckle deep beneath the borderlines.
This may hurt a little but its something you'll get used to.
Relax. Slip Away...

blanco



Registered
  08/10/2003
Points
  66
28th March, 2007 at 18:37:20 -

How do you make all your game's info, if all loaded from an external file, totally unhackable? I mean, if you were just loading from gamedata.arr, or whatever, anyone could easily modify your main game's level/progress/stats using their own MMF program that can easily display, and modify, all your game info.

 
n/a

David Newton (DavidN)

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Honored Admin Alumnus
28th March, 2007 at 18:46:12 -

You could keep MD5 hashes of the genuine data and compare them when they're loaded, but storing anything externally always introduces some sort of risk.

 
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Tomssuli



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VIP Member
29th March, 2007 at 07:04:20 -

So far, the level editor of Bazooka Challenge looks like this. The arrays are great for saving levels based on tiles
Image

Image Edited by the Author.

 
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axel

Crazy?

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Game of the Week WinnerYou've Been Circy'd!
29th March, 2007 at 07:31:09 -

blanco: Why? Why would you bother making an anti-hack system anyway? A game's purpose is to entertain, and if people find that hacking your game is fun, then why stop them, just for the sake of stopping them? The Underside is hackable, Cave Story is hackable. Hell, there are even Cave Story mods out there.

Of course, it's different if it's an online game, and you want to prevent players from taking unfair advantage by changing game data. But if it's only a one-player game, then I can't really see why you'd want to prevent people from hacking it.

That's my philosophy anyway.

 
n/a

alastair john jack

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GOTW WINNER CUP 1!GOTW WINNER CUP 2!GOTW WINNER CUP 3!VIP MemberMushroomI am an April Fool
29th March, 2007 at 22:05:03 -

yeah but I would still like to see what Podunkian's underside editor looks like

 
lol

Paul_James



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30th March, 2007 at 01:59:20 -

axel: I agree
but maybe they should make it more challenging
encrypt your code ~ if someone really wants to hack your game
give em' hell

 
Its not enough,I need more
Not enough to satisify
I said I dont want it, I just need it.
To believe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

Knuckle deep beneath the borderlines.
This may hurt a little but its something you'll get used to.
Relax. Slip Away...

viva/volt

Awesome Sauce

Registered
  26/08/2006
Points
  1694

Game of the Week WinnerSilverNova MemberKlikCast StarVIP Member
30th March, 2007 at 04:39:13 -

You could just encrypt with blowfish if you really wanted... I don't see the point, modding games is fun! I might release an underside mod when it's done, nice and easy to edit

 
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http://bfollington.tumblr.com

axel

Crazy?

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Game of the Week WinnerYou've Been Circy'd!
30th March, 2007 at 05:19:14 -

If you only wanted to prevent people from changing game data, then you could just have it MD5 all external files, and compare it with a hash that you've stored in a string somewhere in the game. If you didn't want people to be able to even look at your data, then you should encrypt it. But again, I don't see the point in that anyway.

 
n/a

alastair john jack

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GOTW WINNER CUP 1!GOTW WINNER CUP 2!GOTW WINNER CUP 3!VIP MemberMushroomI am an April Fool
30th March, 2007 at 05:45:47 -

There are many reasons why you wouldn't want people to edit external files, although it depends on the game, somes games it would be great for others it would horrifically ruin.

 
lol
   

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