Originally Posted by JustinC If anyone could do it better than Clickteam they would have.
Construct? Oh, but it's illegal because it copies MMF's patented & copyrighted interface
$100 is not a small price, unless you live in some country with very high wages. $100 is a month's pay as a research assistant in my country, not including transportation and living costs. A person can really learn to hate something that he starved on for a month to buy and then find out that it's pretty much the same as the previous thing he also bought
Just for comparison:
Adobe Creative Suite costs $3000.
$100 is a VERY low price for a powerful software as MMF2. And, to add more on this, Clickteam offers effective discounts for people owning previous versions. And even more, if even THAT is too expensive for you, they even offer a cheaper and more limited version of the software named TGF2.
Moreover, MMF2 has tons of new features against MMF1.5. And if you are disappointed with it, you should have tried the demo because that's the reason it's there.
Clickteam has thought about the Click interface and idea in 1994 and worked hard and kept improving it constantly until today. (And people saying MMF2 is nothing new against MMF1.5 are talking purely CRAP.) More than that, they keep providing free updates to ANYONE who legally own this product ranging from simple new objects to major core functions such as Java runtime and HWA. Again: All that for free.
But suddenly these Construct guys pop out of nowhere and shamelessly clone ANY unique feature the Click range had for ages, the features that Clickteam has been working hard on for ages and thought about them by themselves, not other hard-working people.
People who still support an illegal product such as Construct despite of these facts are completely insane idiots. There's no justification for ANY of Construct's actions on this subject or any of their illegal actions that I've mentioned in previous topics. I'd like to hear Mrs. Ashely justification on this one.
But suddenly these Construct guys pop out of nowhere and shamelessly clone ANY unique feature the Click range had for ages, the features that Clickteam has been working hard on for ages and thought about them by themselves, not other hard-working people.
People who still support an illegal product such as Construct despite of these facts are completely insane idiots. There's no justification for ANY of Construct's actions on this subject or any of their illegal actions that I've mentioned in previous topics. I'd like to hear Mrs. Ashely justification on this one.
Reinventing the wheel is silly. Using an existing interface as a basis for your own has been something that's been done for years. We could apply the "cloned unique features" bit to virtually any digital graphics program, any non-linear editor, or even 3D software. Heck, just to stretch the bounds for emphasis, I could throw in syntax editors for programming languages.
Now, don't take this as me supporting one side or the other, I'm simply making a point of reference from a developer's standpoint.
At the end of the day, Construct is still in beta and until it is out of beta I can't see anybody using it to make a game.
And LIJI, I doubt people will base their choice of product based upon the actions of the developers themselves. I see where you're coming from, but I think people would rather think about the quality and price of a product, than whether the product itself is illegal.
Though I still don't see why what they have done is actually illegal. Unless Clickteam have a patent in place, I'm pretty sure that the only thing protecting them is copyright which doesn't actually protect how the product is created or made. Feel free to correct me on that if I'm wrong. And I know you say that they tried hacking Clickteam's servers or something - but that still doesn't make the product itself illegal (though I agree I wouldn't want to support a company who carries out those actions, if the allegations are true anyway).
I think CT vs Scirra discussions should be banned from the forums, as much as Next gen console debate threads should be, too. The same points are said, over and over, there's very little point to these threads.
Originally Posted by -Adam- I think CT vs Scirra discussions should be banned from the forums, as much as Next gen console debate threads should be, too. The same points are said, over and over, there's very little point to these threads.
I agree, but sometimes it can be good to discuss stuff like this (plus people might see it as censorship, which would probably get them all angry and stuff)
$100 for mmf2 is a small price to pay for the unbelievable amount of time I have spent using their software.</quote]
But add on top of that the cost you no doubt paid for MMF1 and 1.5 Even though you get an upgrade discount, it's still very small. It should have been 75% off, not 75% of the cost.
I dislike this limitation just as much as you do but i was aware of it before i bought the software. It's not like click team didn't release a demo.
The problem is a lot of features get added in later. With MMF2 I wasn't buying it as is, I was buying it with the expectation it would be expanded like others have been in the past. Also, I had no reason to believe they'd remove the old workaround for global qualifiers.
Just for comparison:
Adobe Creative Suite costs $3000.
$100 is a VERY low price for a powerful software as MMF2.
It's not really fair to compare a professional product with a huge team behind it to MMF which is really a rather simple tool that's been built up over the period of 14 or so years. Even though a small amount of professional games are made in MMF, it's still not a professional level product.
And, to add more on this, Clickteam offers effective discounts for people owning previous versions. And even more, if even THAT is too expensive for you, they even offer a cheaper and more limited version of the software named TGF2.
Why would I want to upgrade to a more limited version? Seriously, TGF2 doesn't have extensions. And the discounts are tiny given the amount of features that are actually added.
Moreover, MMF2 has tons of new features against MMF1.5. And if you are disappointed with it, you should have tried the demo because that's the reason it's there.
I'm disappointed because I thought they'd really develop it like they did with MMF1. MMF1 was awkward and terrible with it's first version but gradually became a lot more usable.
(And people saying MMF2 is nothing new against MMF1.5 are talking purely CRAP.)
I'm not saying it has nothing new. I'm saying the features are not worth even the upgrade discount cost. Java and HWA are definitely an improvement and I commend them for adding those features but really HWA is something that should have been done long ago in this day and age.
More than that, they keep providing free updates to ANYONE who legally own this product ranging from simple new objects to major core functions such as Java runtime and HWA. Again: All that for free.
Um, so? There are tons of other companies that offer free patches and updates offering new features. Valve for example are adding a bunch of new features to TF2 pretty soon. With Game Maker or Construct, you get loads of new updates for free too.
I mean really, how many companies do you see with the cheek to sell a "1.5" version product at near full price?
People who still support an illegal product such as Construct despite of these facts are completely insane idiots.
Construct is not an illegal product. You provided evidence for one of the people developing it engaging in very questionable activities, but that does not make the software itsef illegal.
I think CT vs Scirra discussions should be banned from the forums,
In terms of THIS SHIT IS ILLEGAL stuff, I'd agree with you. On terms of the merits of Construct which is similar to a click product and therefore should be relevant to our interests, and weighing up the merits of it against the merits of MMF, then no, that would be silly to ban.
This is a Click community. No place for these Scirra theft guys here!
But if the software is as similar as you say wouldn't it be relevant to our interests? I don't like the idea of a forum dedicated entire to one company. It makes more sense to be dedicated to Click-based game creation in general.
Check out my Telekinesis'em'up Thread and the ALICE Machines -
I have always supported Clickteam, I like how they're very in-touch with their user-base etc. And I've been using Click software for a while now - unlike a lot of people I went from TGF to MMF2 (to MMF2Dev after the Xmas comp) so I haven't seen how similar 1.5 is or isn't.
Global qualifiers are needed by a select group of people - where-as more people are after HWA and Java and as a small team (hardworking or not) they can't make everything at once. They did just release another update today with a big list of fixes and changes, so they do listen and will eventually put things in.
As far as Construct goes, it's a good application it but it lacks the polish and stability of MMF. MMF just feels like it isn't going to shut down at any second, Construct has a shiny interface and it pulls people in until you do something trivial like select 5 objects to move and it crashes. It does however have some very nice features that people have asked for from Clickteam before and the developers seem to work very quickly too. Right now, in my eyes anyway, it isn't a viable alternative to MMF or to any other game creation software - once it hits the big 1.0 that might all change however.
I always told myself (and I intend to stay true to it) that when I move on from MMF2 it won't be to another "easy" product - I'll just go into actual coding so I don't think Construct is for me really. It will be a threat to Clickteam once it's stable and has the same feature set (it's missing a lot of things I use a lot like the Text Blitter and the event editor is very slow to use) and anyone who's so pro-Clickteam not to see that it is a functional product is just being silly.
The legal implications are kinda irrelevant now that it's a free (open-source) project - and anyway Clickteam should just keep bettering MMF2 rather than compete with Construct and I'm sure a lot of potential switchers won't even bother because of the hassle of relearning another product.
We should be able to have a discussion about game creation products without a flamewar rocking up every time.
Global qualifiers are needed by a select group of people - where-as more people are after HWA and Java and as a small team
Where is your backing for this? Global Qualifiers are something that any game with multiple levels would use. The majority of people will make use of Global Qualifiers. And besides that, it's good software practice. I don't know why more people aren't asking for it, but it doesn't change that looking at it logically, it's still something you need. People are strange.
Whereas HWA and Java are something that are required for as many games.
Check out my Telekinesis'em'up Thread and the ALICE Machines -
It's not really fair to compare a professional product with a huge team behind it to MMF which is really a rather simple tool that's been built up over the period of 14 or so years. Even though a small amount of professional games are made in MMF, it's still not a professional level product.
Why does it matter?
Also the number of professional MMF2 games relatively to the number of total MMF2 games is about the same as the number of professional Adobe Flash games relatively to the number of total Flash games, if not greater. MMF2 is about as professional as Adobe's product, and it doesn't matter if Adobe is 1000 times more popular than Clickteam.
I'm disappointed because I thought they'd really develop it like they did with MMF1. MMF1 was awkward and terrible with it's first version but gradually became a lot more usable.
So you're saying they should've released an half-assed version of MMF2 a year before the release and improve it until its current state today? I think I'd be stupid.
I'm not saying it has nothing new. I'm saying the features are not worth even the upgrade discount cost. Java and HWA are definitely an improvement and I commend them for adding those features but really HWA is something that should have been done long ago in this day and age.
So why did you STILL buy it although you didn't like it? That's your problem!
Um, so? There are tons of other companies that offer free patches and updates offering new features. Valve for example are adding a bunch of new features to TF2 pretty soon. With Game Maker or Construct, you get loads of new updates for free too.
That wasn't my point.
I don't know much companies that provide free core updates with major new features (HWA and Java in our case) to commercial products. Updates that they haven't promised to give in the first place.
Construct is not an illegal product.
Yes it is. I pointed to a post that proved it but someone has deleted it.
Why does it matter?
Also the number of professional MMF2 games relatively to the number of total MMF2 games is about the same as the number of professional Adobe Flash games relatively to the number of total Flash games, if not greater.
But the amount of professional Adobe Flash content in general is far greater than professional MMF content in general.
So you're saying they should've released an half-assed version of MMF2 a year before the release and improve it until its current state today? I think I'd be stupid.
What? No. I'm saying they should be developing MMF2 a lot more quickly than they are being aware of what people need.
So why did you STILL buy it although you didn't like it? That's your problem!
We've been through this. First off, I had no idea they'd scrap Global Qualifiers completely, I was using the glitch before. Secondly, Click products are generally expanded through extensions so taking a product as is, is not the definite solution. I had to buy MMF2 if I wanted to keep recieving new extensions and patches/support.
I don't know much companies that provide free core updates with major new features (HWA and Java in our case) to commercial products. Updates that they haven't promised to give in the first place.
Valve do. And don't forget it's not as if they're not making any money from it - these are features that will attract more people to buy the software, and future versions of the software expecting this functionality to be expanded. The Construct guys are genuinely doing it for free.
Yes it is. I pointed to a post that proved it but someone has deleted it.
No, it didn't prove it. They may have broken an agreement and engaged in other activities but that doesn't make Construct itself an illegal product.
Check out my Telekinesis'em'up Thread and the ALICE Machines -
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