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Codemonkey
Always Serious
Registered
06/11/2007
Points
164
         
       
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4th March, 2009 at 23:07:11 -
This is quite the interesting read...
You can log off any time you like, but you can't ever leave.
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OMC
What a goofball
Registered
21/05/2007
Points
3516
      
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4th March, 2009 at 23:32:22 -
I'm very happy that this didn't turn into a flame war. Seems the people who contribute here have grown a little and/or been banned. 
;__; I love you guys. 
I'm not going to elaborate my thoughts on government and who did this and who did that. It would be a needless and stressful waste of energy that I could be using to make games. 
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Cecilectomy
noPE
Registered
19/03/2005
Points
305
     
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5th March, 2009 at 00:24:10 -
i watch the colbert report for all my untainted political viewing 
although it is a satire, i find myself agreeing with most of it. a friend once told me i was stupid for taking anything from shows like the daily show and the colbert report as anything other than its face value as a satire. but i strongly disagree. its more of a breath of fresh air from our convoluted world of politics than a joke. if anything it just makes news and politics fun.
n/a
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Chloe Sagal
under the influence of FUN
Registered
19/02/2009
Points
607
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5th March, 2009 at 00:38:57 -
Originally Posted by \/\/olf
One final thing. The world isnt and will never be a perfect place. If it was, it would be heaven.
i approve of everything you said, but this in my opinion, is an excuse to make people feel bad about being human. the whole argument of humans basically being evil is horrible in my opinion, and is another form of control. if people think that they are supposed to be bad, it makes them feel guilty about doing certian "human" functions. im sorry to use george carlin as a referance, because i dont think hes the best source of quotes, but he happens to be handy and on my mind currently, but if you check out the first video i posted, he starts talking about worshiping the sun and he gets on this point "the sun doesnt tell me im bad or unworthy" or something like that and i honestly think that fact makes me feel better about my life. im sick of tring to follow a god that tells me im wrong, im bad. he chooses to condemn me for his own mistakes and i really think that is a horrible way to look at life.
i want to thank you all for being mature about this. one person told me that you never should talk to anyone about politics, religeon or personal opinions because it leads to fighting. this entire thread proves that there are ways to have different opinions on things and still be calm about it. i really enjoy coming to this website and listening to what everyone has to say.
lol at cecil! i like those shows!
Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/chloesagal
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChloeSagal
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OMC
What a goofball
Registered
21/05/2007
Points
3516
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5th March, 2009 at 01:08:03 -
The thing is that God doesn't tell you you're a horrible person and push you away. Humans are inherently selfish and to a degree, evil. There's no escaping that. The Bible tells us that God longs to forgive us. I know this sounds cheesy, but apparently you've been somewhere where a distorted view of God is taught. I know there are whole denominational arguments and doctrinal crap (part of our ruining of true religion--a relationship with God) but the central view is the same. God isn't condescending. He just wants you to admit when you do something wrong and love Him.
Hebrews 12:11: No discipline is enjoyable while it is happening - it is painful! But afterward there will be a quiet harvest of right living for those who are trained in this way.
Those "certain human functions" (aside from the evil things like murder) were designed by God and meant to be done. Hiding behind the excuse that it's a human function is no reason to do something without moderation and wisdom.
Don't think I'm trying to force anything on you here, I'm just sharing what I can.  I don't intend to turn this into a religious discussion either...
One of the many verses that deals with those hypocrites we talked about:
Titus 1:16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Psalm 118:1: Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good; his love endures forever.
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Chloe Sagal
under the influence of FUN
Registered
19/02/2009
Points
607
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5th March, 2009 at 03:12:01 -
now see, i like hearing what you have to say about it. if more christians were like you i would problably have found a place with them. i still am not convinced, however, that there is a god, but the bible have a good message within it, although i still think that there are alot of hippocritical and contradicting points within it (i apologize for not being able to site specific referances, i had a few i used to have in the back of my head, but ill see if i can dig them up when i have time [off the top of my head there was the fact that the worlds population supposedly came from 2 people, which would warrent the need for incest, although the forefront of the bible does not mention that incest was wrong, it wasnt towards the later section of the bible that condemned the act of incest, which if it were perfectly gods word would be a major contradiction and destroy the entire credability of the bible or be a humanly mistake, which would disprove the fact that the bible is the true word of god]).
i like that verse from titus you cited, im gonna use that one from now on anytime a christian tries to be condecending towards another group of people.
i still cannot get over the fact that god would be willing to damn "his children" for being raised in a culture that does not practice christianity, or children too young to be taught about him (theres the whole baptism thing, but what if its a young child born in a culture with the wrong god? ) my father used to use the "sins of the father" argument. i sincerely think that if god really loved us there would be no hell, after all when we ascend to heaven, arent we supposed to be stripped of all our worldly urges? so what would it matter who gets in or not?
the other thing that gets on me is the ten commandments. if god said that the 10 commandments were the only things you needed to follow in order to get into heaven, what is the point of the rest of the bible? why are there other things that god said that is evil, i.e. homosexuality, incest, wealth, whatever? then whats the point of the 10 commandments?
im sorry for listing all my questions, i just feel that if im going to bring this up anywhere it would be here, since eveeryone has been such a good sport about it so far!
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Ricky
loves Left For Dead 2
Registered
28/12/2006
Points
4075
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5th March, 2009 at 03:35:08 -
"The other thing that gets on me is the ten commandments. if god said that the 10 commandments were the only things you needed to follow in order to get into heaven, what is the point of the rest of the bible?"
This, I think is a bit of a misconception of what Christianity is about. People asked Jesus what the most important commandments were and Jesus said, Love God, and Love others. Everything good tends to fall under those to categorys.
Also its not so much, you HAVE to follow these things or else you'll go to hell. What would the point of Jesus dieyng on the cross be. Rather than being a list of things you must do, it's more things we should do. I don't think anyone could argue that loving others is a bad thing.
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OMC
What a goofball
Registered
21/05/2007
Points
3516
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5th March, 2009 at 03:35:45 -
It is a good verse from Titus, a nice one to remember.
I'm not well-versed in finding and arguing with and against contradictions in the Bible, so you'll have to forgive me for not knowing all the answers. A long time ago, sometimes people had more than one wife. I don't know when and how that changed, but it wasn't improper then. It could also be that the rules against incest did not apply until the population had grown enough for it to be an impurity. I'm not God, so I don't know what happens to people who aren't taught Christianity, but I have a strong feeling that they are judged on their heart. Not deeds-- their heart. One of the things we are told to do is spread the gospel of Jesus Christ to as many as we can, living our lives in such a way that people notice a good difference. The 10 commandments are known as the old law. When Jesus was born and died, God made a new covenant with his people. Now, that isn't to say that you shouldn't follow the commandments, but they are not what you have to do to get into heaven. The ONLY requirement is that you accept Jesus as your personal savior and ask for forgiveness, and to love God. Following the commandments and the like come naturally out of a desire to do what God wants.  The purpose of the Bible is not just for you to get into heaven. While that is a pretty nice prize for hanging on, what God really wants is for you to know him. The other parts of the Bible serve in part to help that and also as a reference for how to live our lives in accordance with God's will.
As for the no-hell thing, think of it like a loving dad. If you disobey, you recieve a punishment. God certainly doesn't want you to go to hell, but with our free will we were given the opportunity to do bad and receive the consequences. When Jesus was sent to die for us, it was an immense gift that took the responsibility off of our shoulders.
I'm not an expert, remember. This is what learning and thinking logically has brought me to believe.
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Peblo
Custom ratings must be 50 characters or less
Registered
05/07/2002
Points
185
  
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5th March, 2009 at 04:55:48 -
I'm not sure you can conclude that God's love is supposed to be anything but perfect. A human, a loving dad, does not always choose perfect love. You wouldn't be able to logically deduce God would send people to hell, if it existed, unless you said he was human too.
Haha, but if you wanted to create your own hell, you definitely could. It could only be an illusion, but look at the illusion of the world! Holding imaginary standards to sometimes even imaginary things! At least, how I've imagined it.
"Isn't it always amazing how we characterize a person's intelligence by how closely their thinking matches ours?"
~Belgarath
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Ricky
loves Left For Dead 2
Registered
28/12/2006
Points
4075
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5th March, 2009 at 04:58:17 -
I loled at your last line peblo.
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Chloe Sagal
under the influence of FUN
Registered
19/02/2009
Points
607
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5th March, 2009 at 05:50:57 -
lol, so did i.
but the main point, OMC, was that if someone has never had the opportunity or possibility to be introduced to the concept of god, then how would they even have the chance to accept god or jesus into their hearts? take for instance the native americans. did god just pay a few visits over there before the eastern civilizations started trickling over, and everyone just ignored them? i remember watching an old interview with george lucas when i was little and the interviewer asked gl about religeon, he stated "i think all religeons are true, they just see different sides of the elephant". i sincerely doubt that if there is a god he would deny access into paradise because someone worshiped a different version of god.
then there is the huge contrast between god in the new and old testament. there was someone i was watching a while ago and he pointed this out to me, that god just seemed like he was all pissed off in the old testament, and in the new testament it was like he mellowed out alot. it really kind of kills the credibility of the book dont you think? its really tough to match the personality of a character if the character isnt yours to begin with, and if god was writing the book through man, then im pretty sure he doesnt know himself too well, or maybe the new testament was written by him, and the old was written by one of his critics. 
there was another george carlin act, it mightve been from the same show, but i watched it a while ago, and he was talking about the bill of rights. he asked the question, "where did these rights come from" oh yeah, from god "here we go again". but he starts saying that if god was really looking out for you (really), he wouldve given everyone the right to a roof over their head, and a right to food everyday. that i think is a very good point (sorry for all the gc referances, i really have to start digging up better sources), and its a shame that there is supposedly a god that is looking out for mankind, loving them and letting millions of people go hungry.
then there is the divine plan which confuses me? if everything is already laid out and god has pre-determined everything, then why did he plan on people going to hell? it really sounds like hes a great big jerk, and no different than any politician that sends hundreds of thousands of soldiers to their death for his own benefit. does god have a contract with amercia to take 50% of its oil as an offering?
bah. im getting way out of hand with these questions. sorry
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Ricky
loves Left For Dead 2
Registered
28/12/2006
Points
4075
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5th March, 2009 at 06:25:11 -
 I really wish I had a good answer for your questions. This sort of stuff used to really bother me but now, I pretty much just ignore it (sort of an ignorance is bliss thing). There really isn't anything any of us can do about the way the world is, aside from smile and live our daily lives as peacefully and as generously as we can. Or at least, that's what Ive come to believe.
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Chloe Sagal
under the influence of FUN
Registered
19/02/2009
Points
607
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5th March, 2009 at 07:09:14 -
but you cant just ignore thigns like that, thats why im asking. if its something important to you, such as how you live your life and treat others, youve got to be sure of it... thats the prime example behind faith, and its an excuse to be happy without concrete knowledge. if it bothers you dont just ignore it, look into it and find the answer. if god is there he will guide you to the right answer, and if hes not, well, youll find what ive found.
im not saying that you arent a peaceful person, and thats fine, if it makes you happy thats all that needs to matter, and im sure neither of you are like those christians that tries to beat down a group of people for not agreeing with you, and i can tell because you guys arent flaming me, youre being honest and i like that.
bringing the conversation back to the original aspect, honestly i feel that the presence of religeon in society greatly inpacts the restraint that the power has over us as humans. some of those quotes in the second video are great examples of this like napolean "religeon is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich" or who ever said "religeon is reguarded by the uneducated as true, the wise as false and the rulers as useful".
our leaders want us to believe that society cannot function without religeon, without government. i think the first quote on that video was a perfect example, "if we all live in fear of punishment, and hope for a reward than we are a sorry lot indeed". all throughout the world, public school has been an excellent tool to get people towards their particular country. we have things for kids like santa claus or the crap that kids watch nowadays, and all sorts of stuff and if you look at it really hard, its actually kind of sick. i was watching air force one again not too long ago, and it was kind of funny to actually see some of the underlying messages within it. the whole movie it seemed to have this "pro-american" president is the greatest man in the world kind of image, but if you watch what some of the terrorists say in the movie, it really looks like someone threw in a few hidden messages. for instance, when the lead terrorist is trying to get the president to make the call and he makes the comparison between him and the president saying that they do the same thing, just because the president does it in a suit and with a smart bomb doesnt make him different or something like that.
i like movies like that. another good one is red dawn. cuba invades america, a couple of kids fight them to the death. if youve ever played the game freedom fighters, its another great example, and it has those nice little news reports between levels, and is a great example of how the people in iraq must feel. im sure the majority of the people that watched red dawn, or played freedom fighters never got the point that it was trying to get across is that these people in iraq, are defending their homeland from what they believe are invaders (which really is all that we are), and all across the news these people are plastered as "terrorists" and "criminals". its the most obvious thing, but its beat into our heads so many times, it really sucks to call home and have my parents say things like "bush kept us safe from the terrorists".
eh, i kind of trailed on a bit there. i keep doing that, but hey, its nice to come on here and vent out my mind and see what everyone has to say about it.
Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/chloesagal
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ChloeSagal
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Chloe Sagal
under the influence of FUN
Registered
19/02/2009
Points
607
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5th March, 2009 at 07:09:18 -
THAT JUST HAPPEND.
*twice*
 Edited by Chloe Sagal
Patreon: http://www.patreon.com/chloesagal
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OMC
What a goofball
Registered
21/05/2007
Points
3516
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5th March, 2009 at 13:43:14 -
I already addressed that-- if someone has not been introduced to Christ, he is probably judged on his heart. Whether he is a good man or not. Not on his deeds, because then it would be impossible. Accepting Christ is almost like a free ticket into heaven, but if you are truly serious about it you'll do more than just pretend you are a Christian. Faith without works and all that. In the Old Testament, God was more stern in a way, but it was to protect his people. I'm not a Biblical scholar, but after having read and been read to out of the Bible for so long, you start to get a picture. For instance, in the old testament you were not allowed to eat unclean meat. This was for hygienic reasons mostly! With the new law some old traditions were no longer needed. The Bible says that God is a jealous God, which means He doesn't want you to worship any other god or idol. It's the same now, but since we have Jesus we don't have to go through rituals and we have a gateway to God.
John 14:6: Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
The New Testament also focuses on the life of Jesus, while the Old Testament was about history and psalms and judges. The New Testament by its very nature assumes a more lenient disposition-- it's the message of God's forgiveness.
Hebrews 13:8: Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
When God was stern with his people, it was because they were severely acting up. They were His chosen people, and were worshipping idols and commiting adultery left and right. They did not listen to Him, so He let them be overrun and directionless occasionally. We are all offered freedom through Jesus, and a choice to follow Him. (provided that we know about Him)
The existence of homeless and foodless people is also man's fault. The garden of Eden had all the food in the world that we needed. When sin was committed, we had to work for our own food and take the welfare of our family as our own responsibility. He certainly doesn't want those people to starve. O_o God works in the world through His people, so in the end, if we would actually listen, all would be good. You aren't going to get every single person on earth to do what God wants, so poverty and corrupt government will always be here.
Haha, a big jerk eh? I guess he could have just not created you. Would that be nice? When you blame hell on God, you're doing exactly that--blaming it on God. Whether you go to hell or not is ultimately your own choice once you've learned about Christ. And even if you don't know, you still make your choices.
Before you quote Napoleon, remember he was a murderous nut. I would hardly conclude that "religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich" is a good quote.
That quote you have about fearing punishment--that's exactly the opposite of what it's supposed to be. First John 4:18: There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.
I'm not going to comment on any wars. I'm trying not to be preachy here. I guess it kind of sounds like it, but I'm just trying to address your questions.
What it means to be a Christian has reeaaaally been distorted over the years. People have seen the pretenders and the abusers of power and have drawn conclusions that get stretched even further. Even people with good intentions can have beliefs about God that make me go, "Whaa? O_o" (And again, I know about doctrinal differences. These are things universal to all denominations)
Also-- with what Ricky said... Sometimes (for me at least) when you have a bigger picture than some from studying and believing, things make sense in your head, and then it's hard to put into words once you have to explain it to someone else. It is a plague of the mind for many people, not just Christians.
The fact alone that we feel the need for ethics seems proof enough for me of God. If we were a survival-of-the-fittest type deal, why would we feel the need to be kind to others unless the need were placed in us by a Creator? But, that is another discussion altogether, which I don't have the time to get into.
Edited by OMC
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