I also posted this in the clickteam forums but I think its worth a talk here also.
As we are heading into 2010 in the next couple of months, I was wondering what clickteam has in store for us next year, since it has been odly silent since the convention.
With the indie-game community exploding, and more older community members moving into devloping for Ipod and XNA, I was wondering if clickteam is thinking about putting themselves out there again for their hardcore gaming fans.
I think most of us are looking for the possiblity to export our games to the Ipod/xna/flash developing platform. More directly has clickteam started to work on this or is this something they want to do in the future?
Also there has been a huge decrease in new members joining the community and creating content in the past year or so, while the older folks are either sticking around or slowly moving on to learn another platform. This is not to start a huge negative discussion but a healthy topic on the future for the gaming side of MMF (we all know clickteam is pushing the school/teaching angle). On that note is gaming still a priority for clickteam?
Does everyone at TDC agree that MMF could use some good upgrades gaming and publicity wise? Going back to the popular knp days of old? I can confirm that new members signing up and actually uploading games has been at a all time low. Kind of worrisome.
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I think MMF2 defiantly has significant advantages in it's field. It's very easy to use, and very powerful. Unfortunately, a lot of the improvements we all want to see on it, will steepen the learning curve of the program considerably. Maybe not for the people suggesting it, because they already understand know what to expect, but for someone else who is just jumping into the program and already feel slightly overwhelmed by it at first. Don't believe me? Try to remember back when you first started experimenting with custom/static movement as opposed to using default for everything. Some of us aren't even at that phase yet, which further proves my point.
With that said, I think it's kind of hard to make suggestions for MMF2, and without improvements to MMF2, we're pretty much setting it up for failure in the industry by todays standards. MMF2 also sets itself up for failure by being too easy. Yes, too easy. You know what, I can see this turning into a pretty big post. I'm in the mood to write right now, so I think I'm going to go write my first article in years.
I will post a reply once it's finished, since it has to do with the topic.
Ah, now this is a discussion I would be interested in joining. However, it's a bit too late right now. For now I will say that I don't think Clickteam could really focus on the "gaming aspect" any more with MMF2 than it already does. Several runtimes have been confirmed to be in development, so now all we need is one gigantic publicity boost. Imagine how hectic the klik forums would be if MMF2 were on primetime TV for some reason.
Yeah, I've been wondering about this stuff too. Is Klik just petering out and will it never have any more golden days? I hope it doesn't die, and I certainly hope there's a brighter future for it. And I'd definitely like to see some more publicity, upgrades, community members, all of that. And while it IS a cool program, I think it's gone short because of flaws, errors, bugs, coding issues, and its sometimes unstable engine.
Other than that, who knows. It's a shame it's in a backseat in the gaming industry. If anything, Clickteam needs to make a bigger, more impressive mark and maybe lower the price. It's a bit high imo, regardless of how neat 'n' dandy it is.
I don't think this is true for everyone here. But i think most of us were gently guided into MMF2 either starting with Klick&Play or TGF1. People who start out with MMF2 may be either overwhelmed, or think it's too simple (cause they haven't tried it enough to see what it really can do).
I think what clickteam should do is make a super stripped down version of MMF2, and give it the kiddy friendly interface of Klick and Play, and sell it in stores for 20 bucks. To get started on a new generation of clickers,
Originally Posted by Ricky Garces I don't think this is true for everyone here. But i think most of us were gently guided into MMF2 either starting with Klick&Play or TGF1. People who start out with MMF2 may be either overwhelmed, or think it's too simple (cause they haven't tried it enough to see what it really can do).
I think what clickteam should do is make a super stripped down version of MMF2, and give it the kiddy friendly interface of Klick and Play, and sell it in stores for 20 bucks. To get started on a new generation of clickers,
I like and have always liked this idea. Isn't this post so substantial?
Very good points by all! I do heavily agree with Ricky in saying
Quote "I think what clickteam should do is make a super stripped down version of MMF2, and give it the kiddy friendly interface of Klick and Play, and sell it in stores for 20 bucks. To get started on a new generation of clickers"
I really think that would be a great idea and get a good high profile publisher to stand behind it like Europress did in Europe and Maxiss did in the USA/Canada.
Oh and Cassata, great article you made there!
Edited by an Administrator
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Originally Posted by ωξяξW○○F I think it's gone short because of flaws, errors, bugs, coding issues, and its sometimes unstable engine.
What? Where? Huh? MMF2 has always been super stable for me!
I don't think a super stripped down version is a good idea, really. TGF2 is already the "beginner" version, and there's nothing else really you could take out without impairing its use. The only thing you could really do to change MMF to remind you more of KNP and TGF is to go back to some of those old interface designs. Not really a good plan to go backwards.
Okay, I disagree with Ricky because I found MMF2 unbelievably easy to learn and code with. There is no need for a kiddie interface, although it might be enticing for people who don't care about making their game the best. And what really needs to happen in that build is a fixed default platform engine!
TGF1 still has the best interface in my opinion, simplistic yet it does everything you need. To be honest I was so glad that moved away from the god awful MMF 1.2/1.5 interface. I personally think they paid a tramp to design the MMF 1.2 / 1.5 gui.
I remember getting TGF in toys r us. Maybe just SELLING TGF2 in toy stores would be a good start. I can also remember Gamemaker magazine giving away TGF pro (i scoured every shop until i found a mag ) and another mag giving away KNP. All i think thats needed is some publicity.
I've said it before that Clickteam need to be more present in stores. Good publicity doesn't mean you have to go hunting for the product, it should find you first! Toy shops, game shops, free demos on game magazine cover discs, PC World - these are the types of avenues i think Clickteam should be more visable in.
And for what it's worth, i kinda agree with Ricky, seeing as playing with K'n'P got me into buying MMF. A new entry level version of MMF would be useful
TGF1 was sold under the budget label Explosiv for £10 where i found it in the huge UK computer game store called GAME. Of course MMF1.5 was already out when i picked my copy up but without that I probably wouldn't even be a clicker today.
So getting a publisher to distribute TGF2 or something would be great for the community if not clickteam directly even if only a few new members join because of it.
Clickteam seems very set in having this specific business model and they are sticking to it. If that works for them, then people should have peace with it including myself.
However, visitor count might be up, But the forums are dreadfully empty compared to other company/fan forums.
Even clickteams unofficial owned site "gamebuilder" run by fans, is running dry on activity and unfortunately that group of "active" members is very small. (I dont know if throwing a cash price for a compo at this might be the best way to go) But what do I know?
Someone else suggested to just create the "klik&play" for this generation with Flash support! (tgf2 repackaged with flash support) Get a big time publisher to publish it all over the place, with clickteam retaining the rights to sell its own high-end mmf2, you should be set. But it looks like that is not going to change. Or maybe such a deal might be impossible to get.
At any rate thumbs up for upcoming flash and extension support, but time will tell if that will be enough.
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Selling bulk licences to schools probably has a bigger and more immediate financial reward for Clickteam. At the same time as making sales, they're marketing the software to kids who will remember the name of the software if it snagged their interest. I think it's a great tactic, for a company producing software that's lagging behind the incredible pace that the industry has been moving in recently.
Like many others, I'd also like to see MMF2 sitting proudly on a shelf in my favourite game store, but it's probably never going to happen. Maybe their experience with IMSI made them reluctant to work with any other publishers in future. I know most of us here were introduced to MMF through seeing the obnoxiously large TGF box, or the Klik & Play sample disc, but the costs involved in mass producing and distributing the boxed software again would just not be worth it.
Just as an aside, I think Clickteam's marketing and public image could do with an overhaul. I've met Francois and Yves and can tell you that they're really great guys and very interested in what's going on in the community. The Clickteam website, however, doesn't reflect their enthusiasm and is very corporate looking. Take a look at YoYoGames' front page and you'll see a company that's obviously in touch with what their users are creating. Perhaps Clickteam rely on TDC to handle the fun community stuff for them.
Having said all that, I think Clickteam will do just fine. A little bit of marketing here and there wouldn't hurt to say the least, but they're obviously getting the sales they need to continue as a company. When the iPhone and Flash runtimes arrive, this community and their sales have the potential to explode, but if they just rely on word of mouth it's hard not to be pessimistic about what the results will be.
They need to push the abilities of the program and show conitinued support for extensions which have potential but are never really fully realized. For example, I'm interested in this raycaster extension, but I'm thinking it might be too basic. This would be fine for a first version, but I am worried that nothing will happen after the first release. I think the mode 7 extension had a lot of potential, but it basically came out and has stayed the same with no updates since.
I was looking at construct and there are a lot of ideas there that Clickteam could do a lot better. The multi-jointed characters for example or the 3D buildings. Full screen scaling and rotation would be good too.
I think we're seeing a 2D renaissance going on in the gaming industry right now, and Clickteam is positioned to cash in on that, but they have to be able to match the bells and whistles we're seeing in these new 2D games.
I know you can put them together with some coding, but construct had something like that built in. Is there an extension for it in mmf2 or do you just mean it's possible to code it in? Multiple action points/hotspots would be great. Unfortunately my demo of mm2 expired. . . and then my demo of mm2 developer expired so I really haven't played with it as much as I'd like, and neither demo supported extensions.
My thoughts are the usual;
CT should be selling in shops.
Seems like CT are spreading themselves thin.
I don't see the community going anywhere though. There will always be a core group, communities even survived with only 5-10 active posters (KU before the remodel, KF before the server went, TK before people just stopped visiting). It's just CT aren't alone in this market anymore and even have competition from Microsoft so people will see their products way before CT's and join their communities instead.
I've tried not to be critical of Clickteam's business plans, because I have no authority or experience in business matters, and I don't know specifically what reasons they have for how they do things. That said, it does seem kind of odd that they haven't either signed on a big publisher (You know they could. MMF2 is, in short, the best.) or put more funds into mainstream publicity. I know they aren't bursting with moolah, but you'd think there would be more than there is. Perhaps they want the complete control over their products that they currently have, or perhaps they're content with having a manageable customer base. Hm, I don't know.
Like James (and maybe a few others) said, the community isn't going anywhere just yet. We've kind of established that every time a thread like this comes up.
Originally Posted by OldManClayton I've tried not to be critical of Clickteam's business plans, because I have no authority or experience in business matters, and I don't know specifically what reasons they have for how they do things. That said, it does seem kind of odd that they haven't either signed on a big publisher (You know they could. MMF2 is, in short, the best.) or put more funds into mainstream publicity. I know they aren't bursting with moolah, but you'd think there would be more than there is. Perhaps they want the complete control over their products that they currently have, or perhaps they're content with having a manageable customer base. Hm, I don't know.
They did have several big publishers in the past, if you remember IMSI and Maxis. Maxis, being part of EA, is as big as it gets. But eventually they dropped it.
Honestly, I think people overestimate MMF. It's a great product, but with the competition around, it's not worth the $49 or $99. It's the most flexible, for the rate it lets you do stuff. It's suited to making all types of games. It's KNP roots still show, though.
You have teenagers who want to make games. They will grab the inferior Game Maker because it's free to start with. The only reason I managed to get MMF was because I convinced my parents that it was an educational investment.
You have good programmers who want to skip through all the trouble of making a game with a "proper language" and just do it in a few hours. These people will be more drawn to Construct, because it's much closer to proper programming than MMF is. It's also competing very strongly with MMF. Clickteam doesn't release a program unless it's 99.99% bug free. Construct releases their stuff as soon as it's bug-free enough, and even then they'll comment on which bugs you should avoid. Besides, these hippies prefer open source any day.
Heh, in regards to what the best business model would be, selling to gamers makes them lose out to competition. Gamers just don't have the money. Parents have money. Schools have money. They're also easier to convince, because they'd rather have a safe, stable product. The idea about selling books on making games also works very well.
As I've said in these kinds of threads, Klik isn't dying in the sense that it's dying of cancer. It's dying of old age. There was a time when there were at least 3 major klik sites and klik chat rooms were always full. It's not the same. TDC is the biggest site left, and with less than 10 active klikers online at a time, it's not a good sign. You have all these "lololol klik is deiying", but denial doesn't help things.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
I bought my copy of TGF 1 from Electronic Boutique in the late 90's which now part of Game. It came in a big board game like box and a massive manual with loads of examples and open source games. Infact when i was learning the program i ran into loads of issues and Jeff pointed me in the direct of the Daily click for help. Thats how i started out here many years ago. I own MMF 2 but to be honest i find it abit complicated and i much prefer TGF 1 interface & simplicity. I agree with Ricky, they need to sell in shops and launch a slim down kiddy friendly less complicated version. Click team needs to have a business model for the averge Joe!
Infact i introduced my work colleague to TGF 1 last week after he play tested my game Block Master. He downloaded the trial version from the click team web site. He asked if he should download one of the newer products like TGF2 or MMF 2 and i said they are way to complicated to use so go with TGF 1 to see how he goes. He's building his first game and loving it!
On another note one thing i've noticed about newer less knowledgeable members is when they release a small game on TDC they seem to get alot of negitive comments which i find quite rude or next to no comments at all! Maybe the community should be alittle more encouraging/nurturing to newer members espically when they release a game.
I really expected TGF 2 to be like TGF1, but more powerful. It's just a dumbed down version of MMF2 now
TGF1 was easy to learn. It took me a while to get used to MMF 1.0, and that was after being used to Visual Basic! MMF2 has a nicer interface than MMF1, but TGF 1 still had a nice, easy interface.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
I agree that TGF2 is basically MMF2 but with less content, TGF1 interface was fine and way easyer to learn. I still don't know how to use the drawing interface on the new products. I'm sticking to TGF1 to build my game at least for the moment. The only problem i find with TGF1 is its very unstable with moden pc's so i interned to convert it to MMF2 player once its done which is dead easy too do and that way i don't have to learn MMF2 properly for now. The only thing missing from TGF1 is really the alpha fade action which i'll add on MMF2 when i eventually convert my game.
Whats wrong with TGF1? I say give that product a way with a pc magazine or in a cereal box, seen as its a retired product i can't see it costing click team too much. It will certainly bring new members to TDC and other Click team websites. Plus i'm sure people will upgrade to MMF 2 or TGF 2 and Click team will benifit that way too, i know i did
Originally Posted by Va1entine its very unstable with moden pc's
It would be like Microsoft giving away windows 98. (Or maybe 95, since TGF is from 1996) Just a bad plan in general from a business perspective.
I also think TDC is fairly nice toward new members nowadays. There's certainly (and will always be) room for improvement but I think it's much better than it used to be. I've been pleasantly surprised with the amount of encouragement and thumbs up from several members toward others recently.
Assault Andy Administrator
I make other people create vaporware
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28th October, 2009 at 12:02:34 -
I never paid much attention to these posts about the community dying. I guess I never really thought there was a problem. But now since I've been coming to this site for the past 7 years I guess I've seen a change.
In the past there were a lot of "Click Groups" which were made up from users of Clickteam software who all wanted to make games. These were groups such as Blackeyed Software and Fallen Angel Industries (FAIND) just to name the big ones. But besides the big groups, it seemed like every 2nd person was in a click group of some sort all wanting to make games. Now there doesn't seem to be a lot of that going on at all.
So I've got a suggestion:
For everyone of you that loves programming in MMF, find an equally talented artist and make a game. For all those talented artists, post a portfolio of your work and look for a coder to make something with your graphical style.
I invite everyone to spend a week or so with a new friend, making a small game that you can share with the community.
I met Brian (the guy who did the graphics on Faerie Solitaire) through a click group back in 2002. There are plenty of people in this community who share the same interests as you. Go find one!
I totally agree with Andy, I really liked when there were all these 'companies' floating around, and everyone tried to be the best and most productive one. A friendly form of competition!
Plus that it is easier to keep momentum on a project if you aren't the only one responsible for it. When I found out about Klik'n'play I hooked up with my composer friend Joel to form our little group, Eternal Entertainment. He liked to make midi songs and got a perfect place to show them off, and I liked to be a game visionary and so found a perfect outlet! And we have stayed togheter in EE since then, and now when we both are getting quite skilled the quality of our games are really starting to show!
Groups are awesome, and it puts a little extra 'flare' on the indie scene imo.
Bottom line though, it's he** of a lot more fun!
Originally Posted by Eternal Man [EE] Groups are awesome
Indeed. Though lately we've found that large and even some small groups do nothing but clash with its own members and make a lot of noise at each other, if you have a small group of 2-4 you can get some pretty cool stuff done, or at least have fun trying! Sometimes it helps to just have a group name and help each other out rather than try to put everyone on one project.
Originally Posted by Eternal Man [EE] I totally agree with Andy, I really liked when there were all these 'companies' floating around, and everyone tried to be the best and most productive one. A friendly form of competition!
Yeah, there was a time when it was great to be in a group. That was a good time. What happened to those days, and why did everyone seem to grow out of being in a group? I guess people just got too busy and there's a pressure to release things when you're in a group.
I'm part of a group called TDC.
You are all in it with me. Let's make stuff!
But beyond that I just think it's because the initial excitement of creating games so easily is over. What with Construct, Game maker, Fps creator, super game maker tycoon, ect.
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However, it's a bit too late right now. 
For now I will say that I don't think Clickteam could really focus on the "gaming aspect" any more with MMF2 than it already does. Several runtimes have been confirmed to be in development, so now all we need is one gigantic publicity boost. 
Imagine how hectic the klik forums would be if MMF2 were on primetime TV for some reason. 
Edited by Ricky
Isn't this post so substantial?
) and another mag giving away KNP. All i think thats needed is some publicity.
