So with all the exciting stuff going on in the background, i am wondering what should the daily click do to get more visitors! In my opinion this is a good site, good download section everyhing is updated but still back in 2003 we had more visitors then we do now! Is that not kinda crazy?
What can we the admin team or myself do to make this site more accesible to new folks, I was thinking even a name change can help (and cause of skins you can always select a tdc-name skin if you like)
But seriously, what do you think is holding this site back from breaking out into the more visitors mold. And can something be done about it?
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I think it's really about the size of the Click Community. The community's much, much smaller now than back in 2003. I mean look at it, TDC is the only site half a year old. There's plenty of people who know about TDC (50 guests now) but not many are actually making games.
So.. I think the best way would be to just expand the community a bit. Make it more active. Get more people to make games. Ask your friends, kids, girlfriend, girlfriend's kids.
But if we want to take a step - I think it's to bring up a proper chatroom again. Something that the whole community could join in. Not just the Gwerdy or the TDC chat, a neutral one, like #k&p before this. Get a few representatives from around the community to be ops at it, maybe Jeff, Rikus, Clubsoft, Adam, Peblo, Pixelthief, etc.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
But if we want to take a step - I think it's to bring up a proper chatroom again. Something that the whole community could join in. Not just the Gwerdy or the TDC chat, a neutral one, like #k&p before this. Get a few representatives from around the community to be ops at it, maybe Jeff, Rikus, Clubsoft, Adam, Peblo, Pixelthief, etc.
Ok I may be opening a can of worms, but given the level of maturity Adam has displayed he should not be put in charge of anything to do with a successful community (because it really is, it's only limited by the Click connection. If a few members of the community were more allowing of games made by other products (and the product themselves) then it would really open the gates).
Ok, let's not touch on that. Last thing we need is an argument either way it goes
Anyhow, just examples. Everyone could decide on the list later. But I'd rather that a klik chan not be too politically motivated, to or against any other sites. It should be a gathering place for all klikers, just to get everyone active again.
Edited by Muz
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
There are plenty of people already in the community that avoid TDC due to it's 'childish' reputation or because it's a breeding ground for n00bness. (by welcoming all games no matter how bad)
So we could find a way to change people's minds about what the site is all about, veterans and newbies joining together and making games for fun!
But if we want to take a step - I think it's to bring up a proper chatroom again. Something that the whole community could join in. Not just the Gwerdy or the TDC chat, a neutral one, like #k&p before this. Get a few representatives from around the community to be ops at it, maybe Jeff, Rikus, Clubsoft, Adam, Peblo, Pixelthief, etc.
Ok I may be opening a can of worms, but given the level of maturity Adam has displayed he should not be put in charge of anything to do with a successful community (because it really is, it's only limited by the Click connection. If a few members of the community were more allowing of games made by other products (and the product themselves) then it would really open the gates).
Maturity!? Mr "I hate Derek Yu because he copies my art work" I mean, as if Derek yu would ever copy your art, James. You have so many issues I could let slip, at least I let people know the real me.
Everyone has their good and bad stuff. Let's not worry about that.
I do agree that we should do something. I'm thinking about buying a TDC shirt, and I put up a link to this site on my own. (Not that I get many visitors) We should just tell people. Generally I tend to be a bit selfish with my precious nugget of knowledge that be knowing of TGF's existence, but if we tell everyone about clickteam's software, we'll naturally attract more members. Spread the word!
As it is, we have a fairly large community. There are a ton of people on the actives list that just never post in the forums. Doing things like official competitions and fun things like video game tournaments like we've mentioned before (maybe a professional multiplayer game, or one designed by TDC's members) also get people interested.
But if we want to take a step - I think it's to bring up a proper chatroom again. Something that the whole community could join in. Not just the Gwerdy or the TDC chat, a neutral one, like #k&p before this. Get a few representatives from around the community to be ops at it, maybe Jeff, Rikus, Clubsoft, Adam, Peblo, Pixelthief, etc.
Ok I may be opening a can of worms, but given the level of maturity Adam has displayed he should not be put in charge of anything to do with a successful community (because it really is, it's only limited by the Click connection. If a few members of the community were more allowing of games made by other products (and the product themselves) then it would really open the gates).
Maturity!? Mr "I hate Derek Yu because he copies my art work" I mean, as if Derek yu would ever copy your art, James. You have so many issues I could let slip, at least I let people know the real me.
yes yes yes.... ignoring this feud for a moment.
it maybe interesting to note that i kept away from this site for a very long time until realising that the members arent likely to bite my head off. i mean... i first cropped up on the internet click community back in 2001! so i'm a good example of the problem i suppose!
And there we go again . It wasn't me who brought up that Derek Yu thing either, someone linked me to it on my forum. Again you know this it's just you doing this whole strange thing you do. I mean what does Derek even have to do with this topic? It beggars belief.
So yea. Who exactly is against letting in members and games from the Construct community? We could do with more varied people, IMO.
Originally Posted by Muz I think it's really about the size of the Click Community. The community's much, much smaller now than back in 2003. I mean look at it, TDC is the only site half a year old. There's plenty of people who know about TDC (50 guests now) but not many are actually making games.
So.. I think the best way would be to just expand the community a bit. Make it more active. Get more people to make games. Ask your friends, kids, girlfriend, girlfriend's kids.
But if we want to take a step - I think it's to bring up a proper chatroom again. Something that the whole community could join in. Not just the Gwerdy or the TDC chat, a neutral one, like #k&p before this. Get a few representatives from around the community to be ops at it, maybe Jeff, Rikus, Clubsoft, Adam, Peblo, Pixelthief, etc.
Firstly I think people are making games, they just dont release them or abandon them. Secondly I dont think a chat would do much at all, Clickteam chat gets a couple of new people on a weekly basis, but it's not a chat room that attracts' people to the site. I think people should be encouraged to get more feedback on their games (without having to start a project), if people get good feedback on a game it's a really encouraging feeling not to give up on the game. Perhaps Rikus could start a "What have you worked on this week?" thread section to see how productive everyone really is
I actually like OldManClayton's idea of advertising. Perhaps if the site had a shop of accessories for members to buy. I for one would not mind walking around in a TDC shirt or something endorsing a Clickteam product.
Just my thoughts but maybe stop allowing the joke or "mocking" games that crop up so often on this site - they make TDC itself a joke, along with the software used to create the games.
The latest is "Pang the beginning", last week was "greg the potato" both made badly on purpose (quite clearly).
TDC has been plagued with this crap since i've known - way back to Ketchup Kamel et al.
The reason I think these types of games should not be allowed on is because i'm sure there are lots of people (like myself) who would want to get more involved, writing reviews or uploading their creations (i've made ALOT of games over the years but never submit them on here - because I put effort into my work and don't want it associated with people who create games badly just to mock Fusion or to "Make a point" of some kind.)
Yes it's funny at first (when someone tries their hardest to make the shittiest thing ever; complete with pointless installer) but it lowers the integrity of the site and in my opinion would repulse new people from taking part.
Second thing is - the review-score system is kinda flawed. I see a few times people review a game and point out all the problems of the game, giving it 7/10 or so for each category then giving an OVERALL rating of absolute perfection: 10/10. Which, again destroys integrity and the point of having review scores. A game should not get 10/10 unless it IS perfect.
I think Muz is right, we just need more people who use click products. People who start making games now have a lot more choice than they did in 2003, we just have to tell them click products are the best way. So it's not about making TDC better as it's already very good, but about having more people who would be interested in visiting a site about click.
Hmm I also think there should perhaps be a posting limit, or Rikus should ask people to take it easy on posting. Some people post in every single forum post, and sometimes its with things like "I agree" or just comments that will boost their post count. I have nothing against these people, but it's just an off-putting sight to see.
Edit: Especially when they have huge signatures that take up the room of another post
When I think about TDC, I only think about clickteam product made games
And the site seems to be too "classic" it may need to be recoded to add extra futures and be "flashy" perhaps.
These could be the problem for the visitor numbers being low...
Peblo Custom ratings must be 50 characters or less
Registered 05/07/2002
Points 185
22nd January, 2009 at 17:52:47 -
I'm slowly starting to advertise MMF2 at my school. It's a hardcore CS school, and so MMF is a perfect product because: it allows us write a prototype for a software very quickly, and then writing the code in Java,C#,C++ or something, having an image of the product in our head.
The advertising of click products would work better if MMF is offered as a solution instead of a piece of software to be used on your free time to make things on your free time. TDC could then adapt the scope of it's userbase. Right now, it feels awfully directed at small games, and it feels unstructured in a way.
I did make a point some time ago about having TDC be micromanaged by more people over different segments of the site, giving the site a translucent hierarchy system and structure. This also gives the leaders of TDC a chance to lead, instead of manage over TDC. Then, naturally, more ideas will come on how to attract more members.
By the way, I've been going to school for marketing and game design. I'm not pulling things out of my ass entirely. If you seriously want to improve TDC, take it seriously.
"Isn't it always amazing how we characterize a person's intelligence by how closely their thinking matches ours?"
~Belgarath
I don't know if you mean to use Flash, but no! That's horrible for sites outside of band and fansites
Maybe not a recode but I wouldn't say no to a new name and a more open attitude to other applications. We've got the foundation already to support a large number of users.
Yea, it's amazing how obscure this awesome product is. I don't think TDC needs a redesign or anything, but I do agree with Peblo's hierarchy idea. Having sub-admins that take care of certain sections would certainly be a good idea.
We have to remember that this community can only get so big, even advertising it-- and if it gets too big it will become unpersonal. I won't stick around when things are detached in such a way.
In short, I'm here for the community, not the site.
I think it's to bring up a proper chatroom again. Something that the whole community could join in.
Aye. I agree much. It might also be nice if we could do something with the Points. Maybe something like... A customized avatar maker or something.
E.g. Take a look at this. http://create-games.com/download.asp?id=7553 \/\/olf and Shahan made this character creator just recently. What if we did something similar to this for avatars? Not our Picture avatars, but something like A Mii in Wii, just not a Mii. Like, once you have enough Click points you can get new accessories for your avatar. And If we EVER finish That TDC game We could use our Avatars in the game. If we finish it it could probably bring in more people.
TDC Merchandise never really sold well for some reason
Heh, I would welcome a "What have you worked on this week?" thread section, but chances are I'd scare everyone. I'll just say that I wrote 14.5 Word document pages on creatures, world development, and notes on future features. And I'm slacking about 8 pages from my target for the week; most of the stuff being rushed so I could attach it to that Planning article I wrote
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Originally Posted by OldManClayton In short, I'm here for the community, not the site.
That wasn't worded quite right. I love the site too. What I meant is that I wouldn't likely post much in the forums if there were too many people I didn't know. You knew what I meant.
That avatar thing sounds a bit... useless. :\ It's like dressing up barbies or something. I'm all for fun ideas, but I'm not too fond of that. It would be cool to customize yourself in the DC game though.
That wouldn't scare us, Muz! It would make us aspire to be more awesomer game makers.
1. 'Opening' the site up and encouraging non-Klick users to join. I know we tend not to discourage non-klick games but we do nothing to shake off the image of being a Klick site. I think if we had more pages used to encourage non-klick games and advertised on non-klick sites we would see more non-klick coders join.
2. Advertise more. We need more links on other sites, especially games sites like IGN, GameSpot and CVG. Anything mainstream will do.
3. Clickteam need to get their arses into gear and start marketting their products! This is another big reason why there aren't as many Klickers as there should be - NOBODY EVEN KNOWS IT EXISTS!!!
"3. Clickteam need to get their arses into gear and start marketting their products! This is another big reason why there aren't as many Klickers as there should be - NOBODY EVEN KNOWS IT EXISTS!!!"
Or you just need to do your research. The guys at clickteam go to a lot of shows and give presentations on the software.
1) Do you want to target Click developers only?
2) Do you want to target also other game developers?
3) Do you want to target also gamers?
If it's 1) I think the main thing is to ensure that TDC has good visibility at Clickteam.com and it appears in search results for Google with "TGF/MMF games" and stuff like that. As Muz pointed out, it's really about the size of the Click community. Clickteam has failed to find a proper publisher for their products since 2004, unlike was the case with TGF and partly still with MMF1, and this has its effect on the number of active community members.
One a bit more extreme view is stronger cooperation with Clickteam. After all, these kind of sites are something that brings indirect revenue to CT all the time in terms of customer retention (keeping people active, ready for future products), and CT also needs a show window which really illustrates how fun it is to make games with Click products and what you are missing if you don't buy them. If this site would be slightly more "moderate" in its content and somehow controlled/managed by CT, I wouldn't be surprised if they actually would like to include a visible link to each and every MMF trial version to enhance conversion from trial to purchase. Result? More visitors for TDC, more revenue for CT. Happier community? Maybe not.
2) Re-positioning the site as a general indie game developer site would take much time, would allow it to grow significantly, but the downside is that the userbase would become more heterogeneous and different sub-groups in game developing don't exactly love each other.. just look at C vs. Java, all languages vs. clicking, clicking vs. constructing - a lot of conflicts ahead. Well, if the goal is to get more traffic, never mind the conflicts.. This of course requires a whole lot of more than just "accepting creations made with all tools", it's a long term change.
3) There are many non-developers lurking around the site and playing the games. The thing is that the site is built for developers in mind (and it is very well done!). One possibility is to try to activate this gamer group, and grow it especially in casual gaming side of things. One idea would be to build a huge and high-quality online arcade section at TDC connected with member profiles and the rest of the site. What I mean by this is casual Java games with community features, simple rankings, competitions and stuff. That's of course not yet possible due to limitations in the current Java runtime for MMF2 but perhaps it's something to be considered in the future. It would combine developers' interests (make games, get good visibility) and gamers' interests (get good and easily accessible (=non-downloadable, non-vitalized, just java) gaming content). Personally, I think this could be the way to go. Make a new "V-Cade in Java" and integrate it completely inside TDC. (I love making suggestions when I don't have to do the work!)
3. Clickteam need to get their arses into gear and start marketting their products! This is another big reason why there aren't as many Klickers as there should be - NOBODY EVEN KNOWS IT EXISTS!!!
That's quite true. I've never seen MMF in a shop (did see TGF1 in Scotland though, way back in 98 or whatever it was), even on the 3 college and university courses I attended nobody, not even the lecturers had heard of it. One person asked me "is it like GameMaker", and quite a few had heard of the RPG Maker. Never seen it advertised in game magazines either.
I don't know if its different in the States.
Edunt: even at school, a big mofo place that pushed computer stuff a lot and had scores of macs and PC's only 2 people had KnP! And that was when the product was on shelves.
It's even less known in the states, especially evidenced by the (I think O_o) majority of TDC users being from Europe. I've never seen a click product anywhere, and happened on KnP for schools on one of those cheesy old geocities sites by chance.
NOBODY I know has heard of Clickteam's products. (Unless I tell them) My Sim and Game dev class professor wasn't even sure if he'd heard of it.
I bought a book a long time ago that came with a TGF demo, but it wasn't very popular, I think. (Don't know why I wasted $50 on it, I already knew how to use TGF to the level they were teaching in the book.)
It seems that only people who make cheap knock offs see it. With all the other crap (And sometimes not) wanna-be game making tools out there it's getting hard to compete.
3. Clickteam need to get their arses into gear and start marketting their products! This is another big reason why there aren't as many Klickers as there should be - NOBODY EVEN KNOWS IT EXISTS!!!
That's quite true. I've never seen MMF in a shop (did see TGF1 in Scotland though, way back in 98 or whatever it was), even on the 3 college and university courses I attended nobody, not even the lecturers had heard of it. One person asked me "is it like GameMaker", and quite a few had heard of the RPG Maker. Never seen it advertised in game magazines either.
I don't know if its different in the States.
Edunt: even at school, a big mofo place that pushed computer stuff a lot and had scores of macs and PC's only 2 people had KnP! And that was when the product was on shelves.
The only promotion it ever really got over on this end was when Maxis had KnP. I think it was just a flyer they included in games. I think mine came with SimCity 2000. It was back when the box sizes for games were reasonable, not the huge bloated messes they became.
Just a flyer, never actually saw it on shelves and I had no clue what TGF was until I looked up KnP at random online. I had to order the EU pressing of TGF. I think corel also had an ad for it buried in their software under the help menu (Click & Create and god awful expensive.)
Originally Posted by Rickgy I bet most of us found out about click team by the demos included in Maxis Games.
KNP was being given away (or was ultra cheap) with some old PC mag I got in 96, maybe 97. And AMOS was in Amiga Format I think a couple of years before that.
When I bought my copy of The games factory it was in GAME on that cheap budget label 'Explosiv'.
I doubt they got an awful lot of spontaneous buys from that even though it was in GAME (a pretty big store)also British home stores and Toy's R us. a £10 Explosiv purchase isn't something that screams quality. So even in that case you would have to already know what The Games factory was before you would buy it.
Funny how little gems can be found where you wouldn't expect. The publishing history of (what are now) Clickteam's products is very interesting for sure. If it weren't for the fact that being stuck under a industry giant comes with all kinds of poos, I bet Clickteam could easily get a big-name company to publish MMF2. The community would explode! Which could be a good and bad thing...
"I bet Clickteam could easily get a big-name company to publish MMF2. The community would explode! Which could be a good and bad thing...
These sort of things are fun to think about. "
*Sigh* And so much harder to get. It would indeed be quite nice if Clickteam got a contract with some big name company to sell their products, but that's a mere dream as of late.
Originally Posted by steve Just my thoughts but maybe stop allowing the joke or "mocking" games that crop up so often on this site - they make TDC itself a joke, along with the software used to create the games.
I don't think that's a problem really, and I doubt a bit of humour or messing about on the site is going to turn people away, unless they're particularly stuffy. More what you're displaying is a symptom of taking it a bit seriously, perhaps because you're invested in this place, perhaps not. Which is fine! I just don't think most newcomers would be turned off by some throwaway software being amongst the good stuff, which is what tends to be displayed on the front page anyway.
I'd hazard a guess that it's the cliquey nature (unavoidable in every online community EVER, and a sign of relationships and other good things), and the infighting (which there's not much excuse for) that demotivates people to get involved.
TDC would not be TDC without the silly games. I never play them, but this community INSTANTLY becomes unattractive if all we can release are professional games, and other ones are looked down upon.
in reply to OldManClayton: OK, silly/funny games are fantastic and i'd also hate to see only "professional" games on here. What I object to are the people who make games badly on purpose to prove some stupid moral point or to mock the software it was created in. 'Greg the potato' was a perfect, recent example - the creator made it quite clear in the description (even though many didnt 'get it') that he made his game as bad as humanly possible to somehow prove Construct was better than fusion.
It wasnt fun in the slightest and it had no merits or purpose of being here, other than to mock Fusion. (imagine you were a new person to the site and that was the first game you played.)
And most recently, "Pang: the beginning" in the download section on front page right now - the creator says:
"I just thought it was funny how people will spend years making games like Noito Love 2 when, if maybe I added more difficulty, Pang could easily entertain for similar time periods."
So, it's sole purpose was to insult those who put effort into making GOOD software. Downloading and installing (yes it has a full-installer) Pang was a waste of time and i'm sure people who casually visit the site at random and want to check out whats going on here for inspiration or to maybe join the community would soon leave after playing such a game.
Theres a difference between creating silly/fun games to entertain others/yourself and creating mock games just to make a point, hope that clears up what I meant before!
I realise it's been a long-standing tradition of The Daily Click to welcome shit games on the download page with open-arms and give them 5/5 and glowing reviews as an ironic, inside "joke" and say "game-of-the-week" but as long as this tradition continues I don't think the community will grow much because the real joke is the site itself when such games are permitted.
Originally Posted by steve
I realise it's been a long-standing tradition of The Daily Click to welcome shit games - - but as long as this tradition continues I don't think the community will grow much because the real joke is the site itself when such games are permitted.
Well, that will alienate only a very small part of potential visitors/members, i.e. some of the "more professional developers". The big masses (relatively big, that is) are still more or less beginners and they will appreciate the fact that the site accepts noobish games. When they see that you don't have to spend months to put something together and get it into the download list, it's much easier for them to begin clicking and interacting with the rest of the community. This enables the userbase to grow - not other way around.
But yeah, I agree with you on those mock games, but I think in the end there are so few of those that it hardly makes a difference.
@MJK OK, you misunderstood me also. I have absolutely nothing against "noobish" games. I welcome and encourage people who are starting out and show their first game off (although for the life of me I never understood why someone would do that! lol)
Nothing against newbies. I only have a problem with the few people (who have probably been here as long as I have) that make MOCK-games or games to insult others or the software, especially when it is so blatant.
But I really don't think new people will care or even notice the joke/insult! This site isn't really a joke because it allows that. Not at all, in fact. The fact that most of us deal with these things properly shows the opposite, and that we aren't a stingy bunch of people who shoot you down if you try to make fun of us or something we all do. If anything, we should be more worried about people who overreact to these games than the actual makers of the games.
But I agree that those sorts of jokes are uncalled for.
Rikus, you could reposition TDC as being a general indie gaming website. That could get you a lot of visitors. The indie community is pretty big - check out these sites for example:
You could really attract a wide audience being a general indie gaming site, appealing to every single one of those (already large and popular) sites. It'd basically mean posting news about the wider indie gaming community, ranging from new XNA features to interesting indie games like Aquaria, Knytt Stories, World of Goo, and Flow. This is all interesting and relevant to indie game developers, whether you write games in Game Maker or C#. The site would probably need to be restructured if you're serious about accepting a wide variety of tools. For example, you don't want just a big long list of articles. They'd need to be sorted according to whether they're relevant to Game Maker, XNA, C++, or whatever. That's not a problem until you start getting a more diverse range of content, but you'll need to think about it.
Basically, you should widen your focus to include ALL home-made/small-business made games, because globally, there's a LOT happening with all that. Jump on the bandwagon.
No. Just no. The last thing we need is to generalize TDC. There's nothing wrong with having specialty sites and there are already a crapload of general sites. If you can't tell I feel pretty strongly about this. I come here for click stuff and click stuff only. If this site changes, I won't have anywhere to go.
Shouldn't the phrase "Jump on the Bandwagon" be enough to keep us from doing that?
Basically, you should widen your focus to include ALL home-made/small-business made games, because globally, there's a LOT happening with all that. Jump on the bandwagon.
That's exactly it. The last coupld of years have seen the announcement of MS's Yogo (or whatever the hell that really simple looking game making this is called), XNA, Construct. TDC could already support these games no problem.
When someone submits a game to TDC you should have to pick which language/app you developed it in and maybe even have a system to view games made by each app.
But the only problem is going to be letting other people freely posts there games here, free of discrimination of what they were built in (lol, 60's America anywun?) because it might not be so comfy for the first few non-Click members.
I do think we should open up to new people, and apps.
My idea is to STILL be a mainly click website, but not rely on it, open up to other people too!
It might be hard for some people but better for everything as a whole.
Become more indie and less click, but still be a mainly click website.
Your just jealous that you're not as awesome as me.
(And my megaman avatar )
Used to.. the vitalize and cgiirc chat pages were removed and replaced with the vitalized client a while ago though due to there being next to nobody in there
I wouldn't mind TDC being generalized. I don't see why it has to be specific to klik. No matter what happens, TDC will always be a klik site.
@steve: I did look at that a few years back, but let's face it. It's not about what TDC is about. It's about creating games. Not about creating good games, just making games - supporting people who make games, and even the guys like Pixelthief who try out different styles with klik, just for the sake of doing it.
Let's face it, if you have a good game, you get 5 stars. If you have an excellent game, you get 5 stars and a review. If you have a game that's legendary, enters newspapers, indie blogs, etc, you get 4 stars and 3 reviews. Most of TDC has been biased to support game makers, not game players, and it's going to take a lot of work to reverse that trend. But then again, it's why TDC still survives longer than every other klik site, because all the attempted crap games out there mask the games that are crap because the creator was unskilled. And www.caiman.us has MORE crap games, but much, much more visitors. There have always been sites dedicated to professional klik games, like Total Klik and Klik-Me. Just have to wait until someone makes another.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
@muz yeah, TDC "survives" as you say, year-after-year but that is not the issue or question of this thread - the site deserves more integrity, more members and more people getting involved (and I could get alot more involved myself; I'd love to write honest reviews and upload my creations but...)
TDC is stuck in it's ways and we continue the tradition of supporting FAKE/MOCK games that crop up almost every week which the little niche-community ironically (or out of ignorance) give 5/5 and glowing reviews or vote as "game of the week" just to be 'funny'.
IS that what TDC stands for? Little in-jokes that nobody outside of this community would "get". Again, I ask you - what would you think if you were a new person to this site, looking for a game-making community to join to get inspiration or such and the first game you check out (on the front page - along with 5/5's) is a mock game- created as badly as possible to prove Construct is better than Fusion or to make some other silly statement that only a handful of people would appreciate.
Sure, there are other sites out there with shit games on them - but I wonder how many have all the in-fighting that goes on here and people creating games for no other reason than to mock someone else or insult the programming software it was created in!!
Btw, I don't have a problem with people making bad games - if they truly made them out of not knowing better then more experienced people can step in with constructive advice (which is great). No, what i'm talking about here are the pro's or people who have been here a long time that make a fake-account then upload crap just to put a point across. You see them a mile off, same as I do. And it does not do the community any good.
I suspect there just aren't as many clickers as there used to be.
We need to attract more non-clickers/non-programmers to the site - people who just want to play games.
If we do more to showcase the best games, and more to explain to people how easy it is to make these games using clickteam products, then perhaps they'll give it a go, and naturally they'll then want to come here to talk about it /ask for help etc.
There are little things you could do...
At the top, it says "Gotw". Chances are, visitors won't know what that is, and won't bother clicking it. Instead they go to the downloads section, download a couple of inferior games, and leave (or at least don't feel inspired to take up clicking). Like I said, I think it's important to promote the best click games.
Changing to "game of the month" would also help to increase the quality of winners - I'm not trying to offend anyone, but there have been some less-than-deserving winners in the past, due to the lack of entries in a week.
Maybe add a text box at the top of the downloads page or something, just to explain that the games were made using clickteam products, and please go >here< for more information. Maybe even add a page talking about MMF and with a little video demonstrating how to quickly make a simple game.
Yes, clickteam should be doing that kind of marketing, but since they're not, maybe we need to do it for them.
Actually, I'm sure it would be in Clickteam's interest to do more to promote TDC, instead of having just one text link, right at the bottom of a links page. I'm sure many people would be more likely to buy their products if they know there's a large community of fellow users willing to provide help and support.
Personally, I'd like TDC to stay a klik site. I don't have a problem with a change of name, but nor I see it making a big difference.
We could make the video fun too. I made a tutorial vid a while back, and the funnier/more entertaining it is, the more likely people will pay attention and be interested.
Yeah, or a series of videos and written tutorials in it's own tutorial section. Kind of like the Articles, but compiled and in categories like "Basics", "Intermediate", and "Advanced" or something. A Learning Center for new users and experienced users alike.
@steve: Good point. Maybe joke games won't be accepted anymore, but there's a thin line between a joke game and a bad game, and it takes some maturity on the part of TDCers not to turn bad games into jokes. Or bad members into joke accounts, and such.
Hmm.. yeah, I think the big problem we have is that the site is mainly geared towards klikers, and there just aren't that many klikers left. Two choices to increase TDC's visitor base:
1. Make it a non-klik oriented site. I mean really now, why do you guys even care what the game is made in? We're all making games.
2. Make more klikers.
Up to you guys which path is the better one
A lot of the site traffic is also visitors and guests, not members. Visitors tend to be generally 'useless' to the site, being invisible, never donating, taking up bandwidth, and not even rating/commenting/reviewing/contributing. The only good thing about visitors is that they're the first step towards becoming members, so it makes some sense to encourage more good visitors.
Generally, I'd assume that the visitors are here for the games. And they stay after being interested in making games. So, from the way I see it, here's a few ideas to encourage more visitors:
1. More (relevant) news. Generally, people like an active site, and news on interesting happenings help.
2. More quantity. More games = more news. And there just haven't been many games recently worth front paging.
3. More quality games. Games need to be over a certain level of quality to get on the front page. Proper description, non-ripped graphics, that sort of thing.
4. Interesting projects. Game maker or not, a lot of people love to follow up on any kind of development. So, c'mon, guys, keep up a good pace, put some nice screenshots, and entertain your project followers a little, even if it's not with a useful update.
5. Less fighting. I mean, seriously, guys. It looks lame. If you have to fight, don't do it on the front page or the downloads. Personal attacks, fighting over whether klik is an actual programming language, MMF2 vs Construct, all those things don't help you and don't help the site.
Ironically, top quality games don't really help. Maybe they're fun to follow on the projects page, but other than that, once they're released they're lauded for 2 weeks, become GOTW, then forgotten. If you don't make Top 10, you're gone. Eternal Daughter's already been bumped off and Knytt Stories is following closely.
Something should be done about that.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Ironically, top quality games don't really help. Maybe they're fun to follow on the projects page, but other than that, once they're released they're lauded for 2 weeks, become GOTW, then forgotten. If you don't make Top 10, you're gone. Eternal Daughter's already been bumped off and Knytt Stories is following closely.
Something should be done about that.
I wouldn't say so. They've been highly rated for years (ED especially) but there's a whole new generation of more playable games out there which deserve the attention.
Maybe they have a place in an all-time top 10, but the downloads should represent the current "age of click" we're in. As it were. The best of what MMF2 has to offer, and in time, the best of MMF3, Construct or whatever.
Edunt: But maybe exclude Knytt from this argument, it is a fairly new game after all.
Originally Posted by -Adam- "MMF2 vs Construct, all those things don't help you and don't help the site."
Mr "Pro Construct" who starts 80% of the debates/arguments
In your valiant attempts to unearth non-existant hypocrisy, all you're doing is creating further argument and tension. Whilst you may gain a feeling of importance in starting online tiffs, I don't think it's fair that the rest of us suffer for it. For this site to be better and more inclusive, petty bickering should be quashed. I've noticed you spend a fair chunk of your life on this place, so what is it you have to gain by passing comment on certain members? Sh*tting on your own doorstep springs to mind. It'd be nice if you snapped out of it.
Apologies if this offends, and I'm not trying to illicit some defensive reaction from you.
You know, now that I think about it, what do I care if this site goes less click-specific? I think it's better as a click-focused site, but hey, if you want to turn into just another generic indie gaming site and leave the click-only site category to rot in emptiness just to get more members, go ahead. I think it will lessen the quality and uniqueness of the site, but what do I know?
That sounded more cynical than I intended. It was meant to be a joke.
"I've noticed you spend a fair chunk of your life on this place"
Yeah because I actually work on games constantly. What do you have to show for the couple of years you've been here? 29 forums posts and an avatar of a man with what looks to be a pie for a hat that took what...3 minutes? Very Productive.
Now I may be a forum bitch, but at least I'm actually passionate about creating games, what this site is centered around. If you're going to follow me around like a little snappy chihuahua pointing out all my flaws or disagreeing with my personal opinions, don't bother- It's already been done hundreds of times, and I'm quite capable of accepting who I am. Perhaps we should buy you a muzzle?
"And this is when the useful >: ) Comes in handy."
We could find even more of em when JRP was around. ¬˛¬
On topic: Honestly, I don't care wether people here create applications using Construct or what. I mean dang, an app's an app. We should really be focusing more on how fun/ useful/ educational/ whatever the app is, rather than what it was made with. It's like going to a theatre and seeing a movie, then being slapped silly by someone because it was inferior. Now that's just unfair and senseless. Who flippin gives a **** if Click products are supreme here? I use click but I don't mock others just because they don't. Really, Click is, in my opinion, the best software I've seen to create applications, but that doesn't mean I should single-mindedly mock others for using something different!
And if any no one has remembered the topic title then we're probably scaring away new member oppurtunities right now.
It occurred to me that it isn't necessary to remove the click-influence, just be primarily click while being accepting of other types. Start putting tabs on downloads and articles that say what product they use/are made with, showcase more non-klik related news, etc. We'll also have to bring in people (as in directly request their presence) that use these other products well to attract others by providing resources for beginners that don't use click products. Maybe those on MFGG, a lot of them use Game Maker...
I also made a crappy poster to advertise the site.
"I've noticed you spend a fair chunk of your life on this place"
Yeah because I actually work on games constantly. What do you have to show for the couple of years you've been here? 29 forums posts and an avatar of a man with what looks to be a pie for a hat that took what...3 minutes? Very Productive.
Now I may be a forum bitch, but at least I'm actually passionate about creating games, what this site is centered around. If you're going to follow me around like a little snappy chihuahua pointing out all my flaws or disagreeing with my personal opinions, don't bother- It's already been done hundreds of times, and I'm quite capable of accepting who I am. Perhaps we should buy you a muzzle?
Knock if off Adam. He's as busy making games as I am, and thats quite a bit more than you, honestly. And I can say that with certainty since we're working on the same project. If you go around flaming people that you don't know much about, you're bound to make a fool of yourself and say something wrong.
I don't think that will do any good. The only way you'll get more non-click members is to go completely neutral, removing all preferences to clicking. Even then, we won't get many I'd imagine. We already accept games made with other programs, and have for a long time! This seems to me to be just another one of the "TDC is dying" threads under a disguise. We should be proud of being a click-only site, and I don't get why nobody else seems to think that.
TDC FTW! Not AGIGS, Another generic indie gaming site.
Change is ok, but we don't need to radically rethink the site. It won't do any good anyway, and instead of even considering the outlandish idea of turning the site into something that it isn't, we should focus on getting more people to know about clicking. We'll all do it naturally anyway, regardless of the site, so why bother changing it?
This seems like a big brou-haha over nothing. I'm probably looking too far into it.
"Knock if off Adam. He's as busy making games as I am, and thats quite a bit more than you, honestly."
Oh? You're both working on 6 projects continuously?
Edit: I also think the site is busy enough. I think you will rarely find awesome talent here though. TDC is like a nest for chicks learning to fly, then they fly to Tigsource.
I think a radical redesign is in order. TDC should focus on espousing its free games aspect. Theres tons of Free-Game websites that little kids will google in school libraries and download for fun. Java compatibility is a step towards mainstreaming us; if we had a vitalize style section that could actually be run from generic computers, as Java APPs can, than TDC could become a popular site for people just wanting to play free games.
It seems bad at first, as this would bring so many people leeching bandwidth as 'Invisible', but in time they would become new members, new programmers, new clickers. New life to dead TDC. Its not a "TDC" is dying thing, its a 'Bringing TDC back' thing. Imagine if the first result on google was TDC:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=free+games+online&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=
You might find us on page #1394 right now. The vast majority are soulless leech bot sites that steal content from others, aka Ebaumsworld. Imagine if a community site could take that throne, and become a place that people came to download free games, but kept its developer community at its back. It doesn't matter what you program with, as long as you contribute.
Why would I need to code when I have programmers to do it for me, in return for graphics? But yeah back on topic- I think a "radical redesign" would simply ruin the feel of TDC. Everyone is used to it how it is.
Eventually TDC would just become another leecher site if the trend we're apparently wanting continues. Either that or the community would become so huge that nobody would get to know each other and it wouldn't be worth coming back.
TDC is perfect the way it is.
Oh and guys, keep it nice please. No need to fling mud.
I also think its great the way it is, but I also think its unsustainable. You can't have people leaving without people coming. And if TDC becomes a 'Free Games' site, thats perfectly well and good. The leecher sites are the ones that send out bots to the internet to steal games. For example, what is this?:
http://games.softpedia.com/get/Freeware-Games/Gridquest.shtml
TDC obviously wouldn't become like that. But lets face it, this site has some extremely good quality games, that tons of people would love to play, that get absolutely no publicity and barely see the light of day. Gridquest saw more downloads on leecher sites than it did on TDC, and I'm actually grateful for it getting out there. A game like Lyle in Cube Sector gets less downloads than a bat/ball game on something like this:
http://www.freegamesonline.com/
Having a great community is nice, but lets face it, nobody plays our games
Well, at least the community plays our games, but that's not saying much.
It'd be great if we could figure out some way to spread the word. Maybe we should start advertising on smaller sites and gradually start advertising on larger sites. I think the only way to do that are through donations. IDK.
"I also think the site is busy enough. I think you will rarely find awesome talent here though. TDC is like a nest for chicks learning to fly, then they fly to Tigsource."
I'll probably just stay here. Honestly I don't know why the heck I'd go there anyway.
Originally Posted by Pixelthief I also think its great the way it is, but I also think its unsustainable. You can't have people leaving without people coming. And if TDC becomes a 'Free Games' site, thats perfectly well and good. The leecher sites are the ones that send out bots to the internet to steal games. For example, what is this?:
http://games.softpedia.com/get/Freeware-Games/Gridquest.shtml
TDC obviously wouldn't become like that. But lets face it, this site has some extremely good quality games, that tons of people would love to play, that get absolutely no publicity and barely see the light of day. Gridquest saw more downloads on leecher sites than it did on TDC, and I'm actually grateful for it getting out there. A game like Lyle in Cube Sector gets less downloads than a bat/ball game on something like this:
http://www.freegamesonline.com/
Having a great community is nice, but lets face it, nobody plays our games
I know several people from the "bigger" sites that regularly lurk around and look for good games to post in other places. Rudy is good about getting content form here for caiman.us, and a few aggregator (Brazilian mostly) sites regularly check our database (Found that out while I was doing research on one of my games). And yes, normally it's graphics that push the games out towards the public. I give you huge amounts of bountiful credit for Gridquest, but something like that isn't typically going to get the attention of someone who has no clue in what a huge undertaking it was in such a limited tool. They'll look at it and move on.
Yes I understand that and maybe its not the best example, but you have to admit theres tons of games on here that don't get the downloads they deserve. Lyle in Cube Sector was my better example.
Originally Posted by -Adam- Lyle has loads of attention. I believe he's a character they are developing into the Indie Brawl over at Tigsource.
Agreed, it took a while, but Lyle is a pretty big game. It happened shortly after Sharky posted his top 101 freeware last year (like january). Lyle was way up there (20's-30's I think) and so was Hasslevania.
Lyle had no attention back when it came out, at least :~) But I'm sure if you dig around, theres plenty of deserving games that don't get very many downloads. I mean the point is, this site gets almost no visitors. People don't come here to play games, only a few very lost wanderers will come for that. In general, most of the downloads are coming from the community and people who know them... Its not a very open website.
Yes but it depends on your perception of "deserving". People who don't make games as a hobby tend not to appreciate the work/programming that goes into them. You may think a game has a wonderful engine, but if another teenager who's never made a game in his/her life plays it they will most likely judge it differently , on flaws in the presentation, theme or graphics for example.
Yes Adam, but even of those games, the ones grounded in the Klik circles tend not to get as great a seeing as they should. Some games like Knytt Stories or Eternal Daughter might break free of that, but even the games that seem to be well presented and popular here like Paroxysm, are they getting the same amount of gameplay as a bat/ball on the free games websites? It might have thousands of downloads, on here and other sites, but its not in the same order of magnitude.
Originally Posted by Pixelthief Yes I understand that and maybe its not the best example, but you have to admit theres tons of games on here that don't get the downloads they deserve. Lyle in Cube Sector was my better example.
- -
Having a great community is nice, but lets face it, nobody plays our games
This is absolutely true. The games are not utilized as well as they could be...they are submitted, downloaded, played and commented by other developers and by a few gamers inside 1-2 weeks, and then what? Nothing, they get buried in the neverending download list and their lifecycle ends immediately. It's a developer-focused site and this shows in the way content is handled. This is of course only natural, because TDC is a site primarily for Click developers - and a very good site in that.
One potential way to get more people is to develop the site slightly more towards what could be called a "gaming community" (check my previous post on first pages). The first subtle changes might be to rename "downloads" as "games" (and separate applications, engines and other nerdy stuff to their own list), "gotw" as "best games" and move it besides "games" in the menu. Implement some type of GOTM or GsOTY and provide even higher quality "best games" section where games rotate in order so that also older games have equal visibility. And finally, that Java arcade center with rankings tied into the member profiles, where developers bring the content directly for the gamers to play in their browsers. Now this would be a big thing (more members, more repeat visitors, smaller bounce rate, not conflicting with developer side).
Originally Posted by Pixelthief
The leecher sites are the ones that send out bots to the internet to steal games.
I wouldn't call that stealing if they are freeware games we are talking about. I'm personally submitting all of my games for the "bots" to "steal" - that's pretty much the most important thing in game publishing, to get players.
I don't really mean it with a negative connotation, its just what they do. Spiderbots crawl the sites like this and thieve away games. Sometimes they do it for good reasons, sometimes its rather ambivalent, and its up to you to appreciate the increase exposure. Then again, a rare few end up being illegally sold on CD packs in the far east, little to your knowledge. Frankly if I had a game I felt deserve the exposure I'd be throwing it all around those sites too.
But like you say, TDC simply isn't a good place to 'get the players'. Even the games that succeeded, like FIG, Knytt Stories, Eternal Daughter and the alike, they didn't do it on TDC. TDC is only a tiny fraction of these games downloads and players. They might be the community who made it, but they aren't the website where it goes off towards glory.
So you need to ask yourself, is TDC capable of being both developer community and launching pad? Its a major commitment on behalf of people like Clubsoft, and I really don't think a feasible idea. Its more likely to just shrink with the community and eventually poof on us, but such is life. I'll be doing it all professionally by then, anyway.
But face the facts, nobody comes to TDC to download games
Mjk that is a great idea about the top bar name changes!, I already asked club and flava what they think. To add to it i want to change the gotw link to a "Best Games" page were only the top rated games by users and admins are displayed. This way you can a nice overview on good working games then will stay on the site for times to come and wont get bogged down. The gotw page would remain intact it would now just be linked from within the new "best games" page within that page on a side box instead having the link on the top bar.
Pixel: I think i will never let this site go poof. No way
Be sure to follow us on the twitters for the latest and greatest: @dailyclick
The thing is, it's the author of the game's responsibility to get it out and known. TDC has always been a place for clickers to share their works and help each other, it's never been to get their game huge and widespread. If someone wants their game noticed, they need to show it to more than just one site regardless of how TDC is run, so it seems fairly straightforward to me that TDC's focus should stay the way it is. I'm ok with changes, but if you're all into wanting some entirely new site, just start a new one! Everyone can hop on board over there and I'll stay all by myself on the DC if I have to.
Even if we try to change this, it will be hard to get people to come anyway, and you'll lose at least one member. I signed up here as a clicker, not just any old Indie game developer. We need at least one good click-focused site, and if this one goes down or becomes another universal Indie gaming site, clicking may go all the farther under.
Originally Posted by -Adam- Yes but it depends on your perception of "deserving". People who don't make games as a hobby tend not to appreciate the work/programming that goes into them. You may think a game has a wonderful engine, but if another teenager who's never made a game in his/her life plays it they will most likely judge it differently , on flaws in the presentation, theme or graphics for example.
I find Lyle to be so awesome not only because it plays / looks / sounds great, but because Boogoo was able to do things with the engine that I personally find to be very difficult. I think "little" things like a solid platform engine go largely unnoticed by your regular Joe.
--
"Del Duio has received 0 trophies. Click here to see them all."
"To be a true ninja you must first pick the most stealthy of our assorted combat suits. Might I suggest the bright neon orange?"
DXF Games, coming next: Hasslevania 2- This Space for Rent!
Originally Posted by -Adam- "Knock if off Adam. He's as busy making games as I am, and thats quite a bit more than you, honestly."
Oh? You're both working on 6 projects continuously?
Edit: I also think the site is busy enough. I think you will rarely find awesome talent here though. TDC is like a nest for chicks learning to fly, then they fly to Tigsource.
Some of those birds might choose to stick around, since TDC isn't a hotbed nest for elitists.
--
"Del Duio has received 0 trophies. Click here to see them all."
"To be a true ninja you must first pick the most stealthy of our assorted combat suits. Might I suggest the bright neon orange?"
DXF Games, coming next: Hasslevania 2- This Space for Rent!
That's a valid point by OldManClayton. I agree that changing to a more general (still click-focused though) Indie-developer site is a risky choice and there are possible conflicts ahead due to more heterogeneous memberbase and less focused content. It's good to have a dedicated Click site and TDC does that very very well, so I would also rather see this as a Click site in the future. But if the goal is to get more members, then change is needed, like it or not.
To get the gamers here (and not other indie developers) is a different case as it's in everyone's interest to have games better presented on the site so that they are made aware to people. Can TDC become both a gaming portal and a development community? Oh yes it can! Just look at the Gamer Maker community at http://www.yoyogames.com/ how things are arranged. The frontpage is 100% for gamers, direct access to games, very good presentation. The name "YoYo Games" is far from nerdy game development, it communicates fun & easy gaming - it's targetted to gamers to get maximum visibility. Then it has this "Make" section where the actual gaming community starts to reveal itself. This is very clever site structure that serves the needs of both developers and gamers. Developers surely enjoy the high visibility that their games are getting from more-or-less-casual gamers outside the actual development community. Still it doesn't prevent the developers to have their own dedicated forum (actually the one major drawback of yoyogames is the external development forum and lack of depth in that side of community) to discuss game development.
If we talk about radical changes (no one likes these of course), TDC could have a gamer-focused frontpage or "first layer of the portal" (filled with content created by us, the click developers) and then this existing (TDC as of today) development side of community would remain as it is and become accessible from the frontpage (rather than dominating the whole site). What comes to the name, "The Daily Click" is a good name for people who know clicking, but it doesn't communicate anything outside to potential new members. "Create Games" communicates clearly what the current site is all about, but if the gamers would be one segment to reach for in the future, then it's not a good name either. "YoYo Games" is a good example here as well.
Originally Posted by -Adam- Yes but it depends on your perception of "deserving". People who don't make games as a hobby tend not to appreciate the work/programming that goes into them. You may think a game has a wonderful engine, but if another teenager who's never made a game in his/her life plays it they will most likely judge it differently , on flaws in the presentation, theme or graphics for example.
I find Lyle to be so awesome not only because it plays / looks / sounds great, but because Boogoo was able to do things with the engine that I personally find to be very difficult. I think "little" things like a solid platform engine go largely unnoticed by your regular Joe.
I wasn't really talking about Lyle there, but okay
My view of things is that new users are put off by the site - whether it be the layout, organization or the members itself.
A complete re-haul of the layout/coding would bring in a lot of new users, but would probably upset a lot of the regular members who are used to everything here. So it would be a difficult decision to make in that regard (plus the fact something like that would take a hell of a long time to complete). Clubby and some other guy were talking about this the other day - the code for TDC is something like 6-7 years old, and it is completely out-of-date compared to other websites. Considering new users will base their opinions on first impressions, that might not necessarily be a good thing for TDC.
I think it will be very difficult to alter the site itself in order to attract new users - all we can really do is add new features, and change the layouts of some pages a bit (like we have tried with the downloads,projects pages - but which still have to be designed in tables).
In my opinion, a new layout which fits todays standards completely would be necessary to bring in the amount of users we are looking for. As far as I am aware, the only thing that would affect is the skins (and the fact you have to redesign every single page on the site). That's just my opinion, and I think most people will disagree - becuase people don't like change to something they are used to.
I don't mind changes to the site layout all too much. Although I must say that even if the code is getting older, it still seems up-to-date to me and this is one of the most complicated of sites I've visited. Perhaps a redo to make it more efficient would be wise, but there's nothing here that really screams "old" to me and I don't think that steers anyone away. I think anyone that comes here will likely enjoy themselves, it's just that not many people actually come here.
As a web designer and programmer, whenever I visit this site it pretty much screams old to me
If you visit sites like YouTube, Digg, Facebook - they all follow specific standards, whereas this site completely ignores them. Those kind of sites are also a lot cleaner, whereas this site has many things going on; which can get confusing for new users. Even many smaller sites follow those standards now, and it can certainly have an effect on how the site feels and performs.
Clubby would probably have a better idea about this - as I haven't actually designed many websites myself (that follow those standards anyway). I just think it would be important for us to get up to date, rather than keep re-using code that is so many years old.
you use a copy of the current database, and put all the new source code in a folder and test it, keeping the current site intact.
then let users link to the test site and essentially beta test. theres some problems with cookies and logging but you just need to delete your tdc cookies.
no server downtime. no screwing up the current site.
im an avid site overhaul/php recode supporter.
i think all the admins need to get together on your forums and discuss a new site design, needed features, wanted features, presentation, orientation, etc. then begin coding it. whoever does that.
Originally Posted by Cecil its actually reallllllly easy.
you use a copy of the current database, and put all the new source code in a folder and test it, keeping the current site intact.
then let users link to the test site and essentially beta test. theres some problems with cookies and logging but you just need to delete your tdc cookies.
no server downtime. no screwing up the current site.
im an avid site overhaul/php recode supporter.
i think all the admins need to get together on your forums and discuss a new site design, needed features, wanted features, presentation, orientation, etc. then begin coding it. whoever does that.
Oh yeah if something like this were to go ahead, then it wouldn't affect the current site until it's complete. The problem with it is time, and Clubby doesn't have much time on his hands considering he has a job and everything.
I wouldn't be against a new coding. I don't think this site layout is all too bad though. The new clean and shiny stuff seems a bit too simplistic to me, and I admire TDC as one of the few sites with a database that doesn't buy into the "web 2.0" scheme of things.
Oh yeah if something like this were to go ahead, then it wouldn't affect the current site until it's complete. The problem with it is time, and Clubby doesn't have much time on his hands considering he has a job and everything.
i think we need to stop relying on clubby. there are a lot of good programmers. if someone had access to the database structure, they could develop together faster. if security is a problem, the whole site can be coded on a different but itentical database and clubby can go through and change all the code connecting to the database.
Oh yeah if something like this were to go ahead, then it wouldn't affect the current site until it's complete. The problem with it is time, and Clubby doesn't have much time on his hands considering he has a job and everything.
i think we need to stop relying on clubby. there are a lot of good programmers. if someone had access to the database structure, they could develop together faster. if security is a problem, the whole site can be coded on a different but itentical database and clubby can go through and change all the code connecting to the database.
The database itself doesn't need changing really - and if it did, then it's very easy to do. And it's not so much relying on Clubby, I'd just imagine he would like to oversee everything in order to make sure nothing is going to get screwed up. Though to be honest, a complete re-code is very unlikely so there is probably no point in discussing it any further.
Actually, some Web2.0 tech would be very useful for this site.
I guess you couldn't add a Spotlight style search here given the DB is probably epicly sized.
But yea I think a full blown overhaul would be useful. The site does feel old. Solid, but old.
It's a piddly nitpick, but I think the word "unique" would be better than "custom" "Custom" brings to mind cookie-cutter game makers (E.g. 3D game maker) that just let you adjust certain parameters instead of making things truly from scratch.
Well not truly... That would be inputting binary machine code manually... But you knew what I meant.
Originally Posted by -Adam- "3. Clickteam need to get their arses into gear and start marketting their products! This is another big reason why there aren't as many Klickers as there should be - NOBODY EVEN KNOWS IT EXISTS!!!"
Or you just need to do your research. The guys at clickteam go to a lot of shows and give presentations on the software.
I did my research - i went into every PC World/Currys/Woolworths (when it was open)/GAME/Gamestation/Argos/the Play.com website/Amazon.co.uk website etc... that i could and i didn't see it ONCE! This is my point, they are not presenting it to the mainstream. A few reps in a country club somewhere does not constitute marketing, not the whole of it anyway. Advertising for Clickteam products to the mainstream is poor. I shouldn't be researching anything if their advertising guys are doing their job - the product should chase the customer/consumer, not the other way around!
Originally Posted by -Adam- "A few reps in a country club somewhere does not constitute marketing"
They go to big shows all over USA, not country clubs.
But they don't buy the product, regular joes like you and me do and at the moment it isn't where we buy mainstream software, i.e. mainstream software shops and websites. Therefore if it's not presented to the mainstream in an attractive fashion then the mainstream will not buy it!
The shows they attend are for educators not a normal user. IF you know of some shows for consumers Clickteam should attend let them know and perhaps they will. Their attendance at the show have resulted in 100's of new users since they were exposed to the products in school and in computer summer camps (best way to do it IMO). The products are also sold on Amazon if you bother to look. The last show they went to was last week in Florida.
Wow, "100's of new users" - well problem solved then. If EA managed "100's of new users" after releasing Spore i doubt they'd have been happy! And Amazon stock it now, well they didn't a few years ago and how old is MMF2 now? More than a few years old. Why do Clickteam need people like me to show them what shows they need to go for? They pay people (or they should get some, judging on the comapny's lack of mainstream market penetration) to do that for them!
Seriously, why are you defending their current marketing strategy? It is near non-existant for the people on the high-street and that's where they should have been targetting during the last decade. Sure, schools are a great area to target and summer camps help but they haven't done the trick so far have they? That's kinda why this debate came around in the first place. Clickteam have vast room for improvement!
I'm defending it because you're throwing out all these accusations, yet I doubt you've actually contacted anyone from CT to ask them what their current Marketing strategies are? This is what I mean about doing your research. I mean, you're comparing CT to EA and their spore game? Makes sense...
It makes perfect sense - Spore sold millions and is on every major retailer's shop shelves or website and TDC, a site primarily for Clickteam-product users, has fewer new users whilst Clickteam products are not on every major retailer's shop shelves or website. Great comparison i think, it perfectly describes what i am saying.
Why would i need to contact anyone from Clickteam to see what their strategy is? I can see what it isn't, and that's to push their products into the faces of every high-street shopper and website browser in the world. And that's where the money is to be made my son, hence why people like EA do it. And that's why there are more players of Spore in the world than there are users of MMF2. And EA managed that in the space of a few months, where as Clickteam have taken over a decade to build up MMF1 & 2's fanbase. Makes sense... Perfect sense.
Spore it a game, not a tool. Not everybody is creative or wants to make games. And if you're so insistent on comparing EA to CT,perhaps your research would have shown you they've been around for over 10 more years than Clickteam, in which time they've released a lot of games and are known to the majority of gamers. I still think it's a really stupid thing to compare CT to.
Yes i know you think it's really stupid, however it is very comparable. Atari have been around longer than EA and are doing nowhere near as well in terms of software sales so that blows that statement straight out of the water. So what if one's a tool and one's a game, you're splitting hairs because you can't find a decent arguement. You're on the ropes. Now read this again;
"Spore sold millions and is on every major retailer's shop shelves or website and TDC, a site primarily for Clickteam-product users, has fewer new users whilst Clickteam products are not on every major retailer's shop shelves or website."
That's the knock out punch - EA advertise mainstream and have a mainstream userbase. Clickteam don't advertise mainstream and don't have a mainstream userbase. Do you see?
Answer me this -Adam-, if Clickteam are doing such a great job why am i the only person i know in Herefordshire, Worcestershire and Shropshire who owns MMF2? Why would that be?
"Answer me this -Adam-, if Clickteam are doing such a great job why am i the only person i know in Herefordshire, Worcestershire and Shropshire who owns MMF2? Why would that be?"
So you went around all three counties asking every single person if they own a copy? I doubt you know that many people to be honest.
Another great arguement there, don't get personal -Adam-. Please take more care when reading though; i was talking about the people i know and i was clear about that. Probably around 1,000 in my estimation (since i've moved between the 3 counties over the years) and i am a keen gamer too so they aren't all people who don't care for computer games.
Peblo Custom ratings must be 50 characters or less
Registered 05/07/2002
Points 185
27th January, 2009 at 23:24:59 -
Clickteam is the one in control of their profit revenue. Whether or not it's a good marketing strategy effects our community, but is not our responsibility or even within our power to change it. Our focus as clickers should be on expanding our community based on those who already have the product. Others will see our games, and will come. Work on what we have power over, which is our community.
Make games and advertise TDC in them.
Edited by Peblo
"Isn't it always amazing how we characterize a person's intelligence by how closely their thinking matches ours?"
~Belgarath
How was I getting personal? Would anyone really know 3 counties worth of people? I doubt it. And like Peblo says, the marketing strategy is down the company, your only concern is making and playing the games.
Whoa, getting a bit heated. You also have to take into account that since Clickteam isn't really big, it doesn't have unlimited funds. Effective marketing takes lots of money, money which Clickteam probably doesn't have. You can't really compare Clickteam to EA at all. EA is a powerhouse with money to blow and Clickteam is a relatively small company that supports itself. There are also other considerations to be taken on the business side.
In any case, we aren't in control of Clickteam's policies, so we should do our own part on spreading the word.
i have no idea what anyone said in that last bit but adam, gdc? game developers conference would be a huge help for them. not sure if they already do but if not they really should. clickteam booth ftw.
Originally Posted by -Adam- How was I getting personal? Would anyone really know 3 counties worth of people? I doubt it. And like Peblo says, the marketing strategy is down the company, your only concern is making and playing the games.
Would you grow up for a second here? You knew exactly what he meant when he said that nobody near him owns a Clickteam product - obviously he means the people he knows.
Do you actually oppose his point that a very few percentage of the population know anything about this? No? Then don't nitpick at details like that when it doesn't add anything.
Sure, the marketing strategy is up to the company, but it's as much our concern as playing and making games since we want a bigger community.
Bibin you're not exactly helping by dragging up past arguments just because you want to have your say. Let it drop and move on.
Edited by Ski
n/a
Dustin Gunn Gnarly Tubular Way Cool Awesome Groovy Mondo
Registered 15/12/2004
Points 2659
28th January, 2009 at 07:02:59 -
Peblo's right in that the community is inherently limited by MMF2's popularity. The userbase of the product has shrunken so low that every website aside from TDC has shriveled and died. Rikus is doing a great job in supporting TDC but expansion will still be impossible unless either Clickteam does some self promotion or the focus of the website broadens to encompass all methods of game creation.
First i want to thank everyone for joining the discussion its good to see so many good ideas and even to talk about this! Its better to have this out in the open then to be just silent and go our merry ways like we have been in the past year. I think for the site to grow is to make some changes but to keep the spirit of the site the same, also more promotion of the site, maybe even a page on the site were we can educate new members on game creation, play hard and create hard
Be sure to follow us on the twitters for the latest and greatest: @dailyclick
If it becomes more open towards other types of game creation software, it will probably help people realise the existence of Clickteam and that it can actually be useful.
Taking steps towards opening the site as an all inclusive indie gaming site would make sense. It's kinda how the site is anyway. People are just confused by the name. Even some members think the sites only allows Click games.
I actually think it would cause people to raise their game somewhat in order to promote their own game creator. Which might also cause some fighting but thats probably impossible to avoid totally.
Rikus - great idea! A section for new users would be very welcome indeed, i think. I like the idea of the site having sections for new users to learn from, a bit like the articles section but something more formal maybe - ie. a dedicated section?
From now on though, i will be including a link or a logo or something to promote TDC and the MMF2 in all my games. And i'll submit my games to other indie sites too, whether they accept them or not.
Hmm, I donno. I guess making the site popular could have something to do directly with the games it hosts. Now if all the veterans, and that does not include me though I'd be honored to be on the team, create a game together. Pay attention to every detail and host the game here and not let it get lost in the downloads section, then perhaps the site will expand. In my opinion, only a really great game here can increase the visitors very significantly. I'm not saying abolish the downloads section, just saying make a special section for the quality games the veterans make together. Anyway, that's my two cents on the situation.
Group projects are hard when you get a bunch of egocentric clickers together.
I shall reiterate. It's not the site that is keeping visitors from coming at all! This site has great content, and tons of games that are just as good as, if not better than, any project that a group of "veterans" could make. The reason we aren't getting more people is that people don't know about it.
We could set up with Google Adwords, but we'd need more donations. We all need to tell people about clicking if we want more clickers.
BTW, Jeff said that the reason Clickteam doesn't market to the individual is that in the past it has always been a waste of money. Instead they market to teachers and students buy their products after using them.
Want to know the best way to invite new members to TDC & Klik? Make a good game, and liberally sprinkle it with "Made in Multimedia Fusion", comments about how "Anyone can make this", and links to the websites. Whenever I've overhead anyone in class talking about games like I Wanna Be The Guy or Knytt Stories or Within a Deep Forest, all of which has been a few times, I tell them to at least check it out.
As Dustin said, the amount of users you're likely to see here is directly related to how well Clickteam's products are being used. There are some things the admins can do to cater to new users here, but the source of it all is Clickteam's sales. It's interesting to think about what happened in 2005 that made things take such a downturn here, considering that indie games in general have gained such momentum.
Clickteam seem to be more keen on advertising their products as educational tools and general multimedia authoring software than game creation software, which is a shame because that little £5 Klik & Play trial CD is what sold it all for me.
By the way, everyone bug Jeff about getting the affiliate system up for MMF (I've been doing it for a year but he keeps finding an excuse to put off turning it on ), that way people feel more compelled to tell more people about the products, and sites like TDC that cater to the userbase can get some well deserved profit too.
...and also get them to release an update to allow building as J2ME applet. I honestly think that would attract loads of people almost over-night. It would actually make developing commercial games a realistic proposition. They could even make a bit of money out of it themselves, selling licenses. I don't know why they bothered with the "regular" java version.
Clickteam are so frustrating - they made a really good product, and then they hardly advertise or update it. Can't help thinking they're shooting themselves in the foot...
They should go on "Dragons Den" or something - get a load of money, and someone else who knows what they're doing to handle all the business/marketing side of things.
The last few times they tried to advertise their products wide-scale, it failed and ended up wasting money. They probably don't have enough funds to launch an effective marketing campaign now.
But maybe they do, and they're resting on their laurels.
I don't know if this has been mentioned (I'm not reading such a long topic )...
How about some search engine optimisation? This site can use a lot of work seo-wise such as good title tags (Forum topic names in the browser title for example). This will be good for attracting new members, whether they use mmf or not.
Well, I think we could have some really awesome project section where everything more organized into stuff such Devlogs,Videos/Trailers,Betas, and etc.
Speaking of which it would be cool to have a videos section. I doubt it would happen, but a TDC tube where videos are actually STORED ON THE SITE (that's why I doubt it would happen lol) would pretty awesome. Irrelivant to game creation vids would be deleted.
One major thing to be discussed is the game quality and standards. Should it be increased or decreased?
With the extremely high quality the games are literally AMAZING. But it takes years for them to be completed... Many times GOTW is not even possible because of the incredibly low entrees.
But nowone likes low quality and bad games. I would rather have 3-4 good games than 50 bad games in one week.
I would really like a happy medium. Where we just have a constant flow of really good, but not great games. Look at Climbing Clife and Rolling Rascals. Well, it devinitely wasn't Mayallayam, but it was still really fun. I would like to just have a couple games like that every week.
I'm in favor of TDC remaining a site dedicated to creators of games. I prefer that it remain a ClickTeam games only site, with loose rules so a few Construct, or GameMaker games would not be minded, but not be eligible for "Best Klik-Made Game of the Month".
Instead there could be another Best game of the month section for things not made with ClickTeam products.
This would also show people how good the ClickTeam's toolsets really are.
Note: There should ALWAYS be a statement of what the game was created with, as this IS a site for those who make games.
TGF1, TGF2, MMF1, MMF2, Construct, GameMaker, RpgMaker (eww), 3d gamemaker, that pinball maker thingy
And I think that games not made with Klik-Interface style products should not be listed on TDC.
There are PLENTY of C++ coding sites out there, but FEW sites that support Klik-Interface designers.
What I'd personally like to see is innovation and renovation.
More help provided to eachother without bias or ego getting in the way.
More OpenSource Engines, and constructive, creative help with the problem at hand.
2.) Reading through a ton of bickering and/or joking, me thinking perhaps there's a point relevant to the topic buried there, then finding nothing relevant to topic in the post. (posts irrelevant to the topic) It's a waste of space and the readers' time.
3.) People telling me to do things unrelated to the problem e.g. "use MMF2 instead of TGF1, cause it's better",
"make a platformer, it's easier", "use math (then they show no example of how to do it with math)", and presenting examples in MMF or MMF2 when I have clearly stated that the problem I'm currently dealing with is in TGF1. (would I present you a solution in TGF if you were using Construct? No.) I would give you a solution in TGF1 for a MMF2 problem though as .gam files WILL load into MMF2. .mfa's won't load into TGF1 however.
Oh, and here's an idea, ClickTeam should consider making TGF1 Free and continue flaunting how much better MMF2 is in comparison to it.
Then they'd gain ALOT of new community members who actually want to make games and not just play them, and most will move on after a while and end up buying MMF2.
Those that weren't going to buy MMF2 anyways and just look for free stuff might not purchase MMF2, (at least at first as most are kids anyways) but those impressed by the fact that they can make games easily and see that MMF2 is the newest and best version will snap it up in a hurry. And those kids who got TGF free will purchase MMF2 at a later date anyways, or at least TGF2.
And if they don't use this method that some might call getting children addicted, those kids that want to make games will end up getting a free product like GameMaker or Construct anyway. Plus, hey if it works for the cigarette companies, why not make it work for ClickTeam products right? The idea is to get them addicted while you can ...
Blood of the Ancient One, Seen only as Shadow, Faster than Lightning, Fierce as the Greatest Dragon, Nearly Invisible, Floating in a Dream, Entered through the Demon Door, Destroyer of Evil in a Realm with a Red Sky Scarred, Who could I be ?
My thoughts are that the expectations are too high now, thus putting people off submitting games.
I remember 6 years ago when the community was much friendlier and accepting of peoples games.
Now people are making such large projects to impress people, but they usually result in either never being finished, or only getting a few more downloads than any other game.
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Edited by Muz
You have so many issues I could let slip, at least I let people know the real me.
Let's not worry about that.
I'd definitely wear one to the click convention.
I don't think TDC needs a redesign or anything, but I do agree with Peblo's hierarchy idea. Having sub-admins that take care of certain sections would certainly be a good idea.
It would make us aspire to be more awesomer game makers. 
Apocalyptic Coders - 
