As we all know, Easter is tomorrow. But did you know about the Council of Nicaea?
Well I'm about to tell you. I'm going to take you back to around 330 A.D. to Rome, where the pagan emperor Constantine the Great collated the Bible as we know it today.
In Constantine’s day, the official religion was sun worship, the cult of Sol Invictus, and Constantine was it's head priest.
But Constantine could see that Christianity was on the rise, and used it for his own gain.
The pre-Christian God Mithras, called the Son of God and the Light of the World, was born on December 25, died, was buried in a rock tomb, and then resurrected in three days.
December 25 is also the birthday of Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus. The newborn Krishna was presented with gold, frankincense, and myrrh.
Christianity honored the Jewish Sabbath of Saturday, but Constantine shifted it to coincide with the pagan’s veneration day of the sun.
To this day, most churchgoers attend services on Sunday morning with no idea that they are there on account of the pagan sun God’s weekly tribute - Sunday.
Which brings us back to the Council of Nicaea, During this fusion of religions, Constantine needed to strengthen the new Christian tradition, and held a famous ecumenical gathering known as the Council of Nicaea.
At this gathering, many aspects of Christianity were debated and voted upon - the date of Easter, the role of bishops, the administration of sacraments, and of course, the divinity of Jesus.
Three centuries after the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, Christ followers had multiplied exponentially. Christians and Pagans started warring, and the conflict grew so much that it threatened to slit Rome in two. Constantine took advantage of Christ's substantial influence and importance.
Now because Constantine upgraded Jesus almost four centuries after Jesus' death, thousands of documents already existed about Jesus as a mortal man.
So, Constantine commissioned and financed a new Bible, which omitted the gospels that spoke of Christ's human traits, and embellished the gospels that made him godlike.
Have a Happy Easter!
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
Anne-Marie: No, they have to share one.
Pete Nattress Cheesy Bits img src/uploads/sccheesegif
Registered 23/09/2002
Points 4811
10th April, 2004 at 15:25:40 -
easter is a time for eggs and eggs only.
give me my eggs.
seriously, you may think this is "controversial", but surprisingly few people are religious nowadays, espescially over here. despite being an atheist myself, you have no more proof of the truth of this than christians have proof of christ being the son of god, so it's all circumstantial rhetoric.
No the only book I've ever read that that nutters wrote would be The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy. The bible is tame compared to that (In terms of randomness)
This isn't aimed at the thread, but at certain posts in the thread.
Don't mock religion. Allow religious people to follow their beliefs in peace. I'm catholic... have I ever done anything to hurt you?
"Say you're hanging from a huge cliff at the top of mt. everest and a guy comes along and says he'll save you, and proceeds to throw religious pamphlets at you while simultaniously giving a sermon." - Dustin G
If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it from your face. If your right hand causes you to sin, remove it and cast it from your body.
I read something like that in a Bible I stole from a hotel room... it freaked me out, so I threw it out the car window. True story.
Edited by the Author.
Show me the power child,
I'd like to say,
That I'm down on my knees today,
Gives me the butterflies,
Gives me away,
'Til I'm up on my feet again,
I'm feeling outshined.
im not religous but my girlfriend is and before i met her i used to think religion was all lame but ive seen that it really helps people. if they believe in it why mock them?
however, if someone showed me rock solid proof there is a god i would believe. until then ill be neither for or against it.
Dammit Pete, no matter what topic is posted, you act all nonchalant and pretend like the information is worthless.
Until recently I had never heard of The Council of Nicaea, or knew the truth about the bible, and finding it out, I posted it for two reasons:
1. Religious Flame war
and
2. Because most, if not all, have never heard of the Council, or knew what Constantine did.
Even if you are an athiest, history is still interesting, expecially something this big.
And YES, Christ was the son of something, but if you had read what I wrote, you would see that up until the Council of Nicaea, Christ was followed as a Mortal man. Thousands of documents existed about Jesus as a mortal man. At the Council of Nicaea, they voted on Jesus' divinity, and wrote a new Bible! Then destroyed as much of the old text as they could.
On a side note, heretic is derived from the Latin word haereticus which means choice. Those who chose the original history of Christ were deemed heretics.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
Anne-Marie: No, they have to share one.
Pete Nattress Cheesy Bits img src/uploads/sccheesegif
Registered 23/09/2002
Points 4811
11th April, 2004 at 13:42:56 -
i always pretend that any information is worthless? really? hmmm.
i honestly don't see where you're coming from with this, or what you're trying to achieve by telling us. so what if christ has been invented by someone, or that texts that spoke of him as a mortal man were destroyed? as an atheist it is of no consequence to me, and a christian would just demand proof, which you don't have, or at least haven't presented to us.
Me, I'm agnostic. I don't really believe or disbelieve anything until it's been proven or disproven. Although religion is blind with people who don't see past the things they've been brought up to believe no matter how ludicrous they sound, but there isn't reason to dismiss the ideas on principle unless they have been officially disproven. So there. It can't be denied, however, that religion is the cause of most of the world's problems.
Proof? Go look up The Council of Nicaea. Perhaps no matter what anyone says, no one can prove anything. You might as well stop believing in New York.
You don't see where I'm coming from, or what I'm trying to achieve? I'm not really trying to achieve anything, I find history fascinating. I love useless facts, and I love to find the origin of things. Haven't you every wondered why people go to church on Sunday, or where they got the idea of having halos?
I found the topic to be interesting, and it certainly something that hardly anyone knows. I'm sure you have never heard about it, so what's wrong with a little more information in your brain?
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
You're comparing a city which I could fly across the ocean in a plane and go and see, to some history which is only documented in a book where babies are born to virgins, people part rivers, and a dude turns water into wine. It's not really the same now, is it?
I just use my common sense to guide my beliefs, and until the existence of God is proven by tangeble means, then I remain impartial.
I hate when people comment when they don't read the previous posts.
I suggest you read what was said above, then you can understand what we are talking about, because you have it 100% backwards.
You're comparing a city which I could fly across the ocean in a plane and go and see, to some history which is only documented in a book where babies are born to virgins, people part rivers, and a dude turns water into wine.
Wrong, my whole point of view throughout this discussion has been how Constantine made Jesus out to be some magical guy, when in truth he was just a man. What I am comparing is Pete's comment on the lack of proof stated here:
so what if Christ has been invented by someone, or that texts that spoke of him as a mortal man were destroyed? as an atheist it is of no consequence to me, and a Christian would just demand proof, which you don't have, or at least haven't presented to us.
I presented the historical facts in my above post.
What I am saying is that the Council of Nicaea was just as real as New York.
Actually I didn't get any of my information from Wikipedia, but offered it up as a source for people who wanted to learn more about it. I didn't know it wasn't a reliable source.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
I've seen the effect of religious belief on people. It either turns them into extremists or lets them know that they can trust in someone. And considering how depression and suicide rates are significantly higher than those of religious people, I guess religion isn't half bad, whether or not God(s) exist.
Not to bash atheists or anything; it's just that too many have become what they've always opposed. I've seen plenty of religious debates, and fact is, some atheists seem to bash religion as if their souls depended on it. It's quite sad, really. All those people out there banning religious movies or any religious symbols...
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Bible this and Bible that. I don't know! You see we all have beliefs and those beliefs are all wrong!!! NONE OF YOU ARE RIGHT! NITHER AM I!!!! So i have come to the conclusion that it is best to not believe anything at all. If someone brings evidence to you that is so true that you can't not believe....... run like a little girl because he or she is the source of all evil in the world. Anyway remember to worship the NINJAS!!! HAHAHAHAHAHA
I'm penguinian. I worship penguins. Y'know, because they came to earth (which was then nothing but a small single island containing only a single fruit which tasted quite, but not entirely, unlike prunes) from the Penguinstar, to create the world we now live in. Bless the penguins!
To support the Penguinian religion, call 999 PENGUINS ROXX0RZ now!
Ninjas, eh Ninja man?
...
Actually, that sounds pretty cool! Who needs penguins anyway?
To support the Ninja-ish religion, call 897 NINJAS KICK BOTTOM now,
And donate ‘till you family jewels fall off! Or else the ninjas may pay you a visit…
Mwahaha.
I used to be into the Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy religion (I still read their bible sometimes), and it is very belivable, you know, about those mice who contacted those people who made earth as project to find the question to the answer FORTY-TWO.
Or something like that. But then I found the answer, "What do you get if you multiply six by nine". So then I got into the penguian-orwhatever religion.
That's all for tonight, thank you. We hope this has been a pleasant waste of your time.
But tune in tomorrow, same Simen channel, same Simen time!
Thank you, and good night.
The content above makes absolutely no sense. But I guess you've already figured that out.
"Proof? Go look up The Council of Nicaea. Perhaps no matter what anyone says, no one can prove anything. You might as well stop believing in New York. "
"You're comparing a city which I could fly across the ocean in a plane and go and see, to some history which is only documented in a book where babies are born to virgins, people part rivers, and a dude turns water into wine. It's not really the same now, is it?"
JP: He is making sense and is actually reading your post. He's not denying the fact about the Council of Nicea but of the statement you made about New York.
The funny thing is, in Catholic School (grade-school) all you learned about the Council of Nicea was that it created the Apostles Creed, and nothing about Constantine and the politics behind it.
I've seen the effect of religious belief on people. It either turns them into extremists or lets them know that they can trust in someone. And considering how depression and suicide rates are significantly higher than those of religious people, I guess religion isn't half bad, whether or not God(s) exist.
Not to bash atheists or anything; it's just that too many have become what they've always opposed. I've seen plenty of religious debates, and fact is, some atheists seem to bash religion as if their souls depended on it. It's quite sad, really. All those people out there banning religious movies or any religious symbols...
I dunno Muz, I'm going to have to take the opposite stance on that. I mean, religion is good and all, I have seen many loving families as a result of their love for god. But I don't know where you are getting your suicide rate numbers from. What about suicide bombers? I really do not think the number sways much to either side.
Also, in debates, you are supposed to stand your ground and debate! That is what they are for, it really isn’t quite sad, its a nice place to have a civilized argument.
And you really got far out at the end. Banning religious symbols? Are you talking about the separation of church from state? That is a good thing. Having the 10 commandments displayed in a court could be offensive to Buddhists, or Muslims, or any other religion.
And banning religious movies? I would like an example of that. It is actually the other way around. Such as Christians banning Harry Potter from schools.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
No flash, I stand by my comment. It might be poorly written, but I was comparing the Council to New York, equally real.
The reason I think he hadn't read the above posts is because his comments implied that I believed what was written in the bible.
" to some history which is only documented in a book where babies are born to virgins, people part rivers, and a dude turns water into wine. It's not really the same now, is it?"
Incorrect, I have been debunking the miracles, and saying that they embellished those stories in the Council of Nicaea.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
ASHMAN SAID:[quote]If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it from your face. If your right hand causes you to sin, remove it and cast it from your body.
I read something like that in a Bible I stole from a hotel room... it freaked me out, so I threw it out the car window. True story.
[/quote]
Yo I know dude hey... Ok I read in the newspaper about 2 weeks ago or somthing that a guy in jail ripped out his right eye or somthing while he quoted that thing you just quoted!!! They brought him to the hospital and tryed to re-attach the eye but couldn't... I guess he is now in restraints.... lmao..weird eh!
"I have dreamed a dream... But now that dream is gone from me."
I dont belive in New York, nor do i belive in tables, i know they exist, and so they do not require my belief (Diskworld anyone?) If you get one of the more interesting versions of the bible it says that the reason for the second coming of christ is so he can tell christians that there idiots and there not supposed to be worshipping him. Sounds like Constantine wasnt very thurough (soz cant spell that word) and did you know that Constantine is the name of the main character of a very cool comic called Hellblazer, which is being 'converted' to a movie called Constantine? irrelevent eh?
Twas brillig, and the slivey toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe,
All mimsy were the borogroves,
And the momewraths outgrabe.
Constantine not thorough? He was so thorough that hardly anyone knows the true history. I give him props for his thoroughness.
I see your are a Lewis Carroll fan. Do you know what The Walrus and the Carpenter is about?
That poem, The Walrus & the Carpenter, that's an indictment of organized religion. The walrus -- with his girth and his good nature -- he obviously represents either Buddha, -- or with his tusks -- the Hindu Elephant God, Lord Ganesha. That takes care of your Eastern religions. Now, the carpenter, which is an obvious reference to Jesus Christ who was raised a carpenter's son, he represents the Western religions. Now, in the poem, what do they do? What do they do? They -- they dupe all these oysters into following them and then proceed to shuck and devour the helpless creatures, en masse. Now, I dunno what that says to you, but to me, it says that following these faiths based on mythological figures insures the destruction of one's inner being. Organized religion destroys who we are by inhibiting our actions, by inhibiting our decisions, out of - out of fear of some -- some intangible parent figure who -- who shakes a finger at us from thousands of years ago, and says -- and says: "Do it, do it and I'll fucking spank you!"
/Dogma
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
X_Sheep:
Voila. You guys just made it a controversial subject
Hey, the title would be all mistaken if we didn't. Though if people actually understood what JP wrote, it would be controversial in the first place. I still think that Christianity would be a great religion if only the Bible was left to be as it was in the first place.
JP:
I meant 'debate' as in the unofficial kind. You know, like on the DC or IRC.
Suicide bombers are just a tiny fraction of suicides out there. It's just that suicides happen so often these days that people don't even mention them in the news anymore, despite the fact that most people count them as murder.
I live in a multi-religious community, and trust me, after a few months, most people around here aren't the least bit against religious acts. Hindus don't mind it when Muslims pray in public here. Muslims don't mind when Hindus walk the streets in some mass religious ceremony. It's only the atheists that seem to complain about religion.
What I meant was stuff like in some countries where they ban Muslim women from covering their hair or ban people from praying in public. I mean, to some girls, showing off their hair is like showing off their chests. It's just plain evil to oppress people like that. And by banned religious movies, I meant that movie that umm... Mel Gibson directed. Though I can understand how annoying it is to see religious fanatics ban a movie (but I can understand if they wanted it to be rated PG or something).
If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it from your face. If your right hand causes you to sin, remove it and cast it from your body.
Somehow I forgot to mention this earlier, but that's one of the funniest things I've ever read this week. If only more people actually did that in this modern era .
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Hey muz, man I tried really hard to find some suicide rate numbers, but none that I found pertain to religion. Sure suicide bombers only account for a few, but I still don't believe there is a correlation. I do agree that many good things come out of church, I personally attend church regularly.
I don't think atheists complain about religion, except when it is forced on them, such as the extreme recruiting practices of Opus Dei, bible pushers at the airport, or those pesky door to door Mormons.
My problem with religion is that sometimes it hinders progress, like when religious nuts bomb abortion clinics, or refuse to accept new scientific developments.
Religious wars still go on today, and not just in the mid-east. Places like Ireland for example (Protestants and Catholics). War to me just isn’t efficient, and needs to be eliminated. If a clash of strong beliefs is to blame, why not mandate that people express their religion in the confines of private property?
As for Muslim women forced to take of their hijab is not right, and I have never heard of a case in the US where that has happened.
Although I can see where the head-to-toe chadri could pose a security risk at airports or secure locations.
Once again I haven't heard of The Passion of the Christ being banned, where do you live? It sounds oppressed.
Edited by the Author.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
Yah, but what then, I mean. When yah got a fat, ugly chick pregnant by accident after meeting, her/it because of having a few too many draft's. Whatcya gonna do then huh? Be with a bitchy, putrid most likely smelly half-excuse for a women? I do not think soooo.
"Everytime you use Kazaa, a metallica band member dies a little."
Quote Jonathon Smeby.
Yes, religious people do tend to be happier and commit suicide far less. No, I am not going to go find the studies that I read that say this, go look them up for yourself. What your saying could be true but so could the bible. It's hard to verify what happened long ago, because the documents get distorted by people over time.
99 percent chance that the above post is 100 percent correct.
Actually, MR.Coffee is part right, though the reason is reversed.
People that are unhappy/depressed tend not to care about religion. Because of that tendency to stop caring when depressed, obviously the non-religious pool of people committing suicide would be higher.
Ofcourse you have to exclude ritual suicide, etc. Some religions still have those.
I heard a Christian riot broke out somewhere in Pennsylvania where they flogged a guy dressed like the Easter Bunny and threw dyed eggs at him in front of little crying children. Easter SHOULD be the celebration of the resurrection of Christ, just like Christmas should celebrate the birth of Jesus instead of Presents. We'd rather get presents and worship evil and wicked idols like chocolate bunnies and christmas trees and eggs rather than enjoy a worthless Holiday like President's day or whatever. Though school is out then, but still!
Really, i know why we have chocolate and presents for easter. Why you ask? BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE CHOCOLATE AND PRESENTS! It's not some ancient tradition of religiousness like it's supposed to be. "The chocolate represents the flesh of Jesus, and the inner fudge represents his blood" No, really, that's all there is to it. PEOPLE LIKE FREAKING CANDY AND GIFTS! I mean, why don't we accept the truth and STILL hand out presents and candy and honor the ressurection of Jesus? They should stop covering it up. I know foos that don't know Easter has ANYTHING to do with Jesus. PEOPLE ARE GREEDY, STUPID, MORONS THAT THINK BELIEVING MAKES SOMETHING TRUE, when it doesn't. They never experience something they believe in, so they assume it's wrong. If they believe in something like nature, they can see it without trying. People don't want to use effort, they want God to do EVERYTHING for them. And of course, God will do something UNSINFUL if you ask. People don't ask or think he'll do it if they DO ask, so he doesn't. That's why children are starving in them countries out there.
A Barber discusses religion with his patient. The Barber:"If God exists, then why do children starve in the middle east? Why are there global problems?" A shaggy patient waiting says "I never get my hair cut, but that doesnt mean barbers don't exist".
Thereby, they unconciously mix what they WANT with what they should ACCEPT. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS!!!
WHEW! That was long and partly off subject.
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
Please tell me there are more christians here... i feel all sad and lonely now...
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
Oh, I forgot to mention the following: There's a sign on the road. You look at it, and it says "< Construction" and "Free Meal Day at Outback >". So, what do you do? The athiest goes torwards construction, finds "Rock Solid Proof" but is trapped in cement. The Christian takes the freaking steak and enjoys its wonderful bliss. But, then again, maybe someone swapped the sign around? What do you do? Easy. LOOK AHEAD, IT'S 10 FEET IN FRONT OF YOU DUPHUS. Did you know that? No. You weren't looking at everything, so you missed it. INSTEAD of looking for proof, INSTEAD of looking for proof against it, look for GOD!!! Jesus yelled at the pharisees because they knew the bible "like the back of thier hand", but never did anything. More importantly, THEY MISSED GOD! The bible wasn't written by god. It is not part of christianity. Simply put, it was a book made for easy refernence (of course, not originally). If you prayed to god, talked with him about everything wrong in your life, and believed in Jesus, you'd know what's right and wrong, you'd know the truth, and you won't have to worry about screwing up. It's not where if you don't do everything right, you go to hell. It's not where doing EVERYTHING wrong, even though you try so hard. It's simply if you believe in Jesus, and REALLY mean it (Unlike the average christian) you will be forgiven of IT ALL. You will go to heaven.
But really (I say "but really" a lot), I think what's really amusing is that people arguing against christianity actually disprove common misconceptions of it. I think of ya'll guys as tools Honestly, christianity isn't about loving everybody. It's not about peace. It's not about worship, communion, sin, JESUS, or anything else! ITS ABOUT KNOWING AND LOVING GOD. Heck, violence isn't even wrong. Stupid christian people misintrepret John (or maybe Paul, i forget(If there is a Paul)) Pacifism is an option, not the ONLY path. Think of Samson, Jesus forcing the people from the temple with a whip of chords, the Archangel constantly fighting against the demons of hell! Really. God awards the pacifist, but it's not the only right way. What is wrong is the INTENTIONS of a lot of violence and the COMPETELY unnecessary use. Beating up that freaking guy who stalks you is OK! Killing animals for food is ok! Didn't Moses say "Arise, kill, and eat"?
Another WHEW! That was all over the place. < Anothother smiley
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
I ain't catholic, I'm just protestant. But hey, that's ok for now. Heck I'm not even in a dominance. I'm plain non-dominant.
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
All I can say is: Philippe, I’d look ahead, then go get my steak, I don’t know where you got your crappy metaphor, but if I were you, I’d reread my posts before submitting them.
Where are you getting your information about the Bible and God? It sounds completely ass backwards to me, but hey, whatever floats your boat. The thing is, you can’t force us in to your beliefs by posting a bunch of misspelled garbage that you probably plagiarized. You call us tools, when you are a tool of organized religion. Who are we tools of? Ourselves?
Let me quote dogma here:
“Organized religion destroys who we are by inhibiting our actions, by inhibiting our decisions, out of - out of fear of some, intangible parent figure, who shakes a finger at us from thousands of years ago, and says:
‘Do it, and I'll fucking spank you!’ “
Now, please, Philippe, don’t listen to anything I have said that offends you. Exercise your beliefs in full force, I support you in that. And I hope we are still friends in the klik community.
Now, I want a rebuttal from you, disproving my main points, and clarifying your statements about how arguments against Christianity actually prove it.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
Anne-Marie: No, they have to share one.
Pete Nattress Cheesy Bits img src/uploads/sccheesegif
Registered 23/09/2002
Points 4811
15th April, 2004 at 05:33:28 -
"Heck, violence isn't even wrong."
excuse me but NO. violence is wrong, anyone reasonable can see that, religious or not. agreed it is sometimes neccessary but it's never right.
here's another lovely quote: "religion is the opium of the people" - karl marx.
I wouldnt say I particularly like you,JP, but I agree with him on this one. You havent really started a flame, just given it some fuel. If you read JPs original post youll find, whilst tongue in cheek, it is not really flamatory. Well done to you for that.
'If it weren't for all these aetheists, I'd start an argument with you Phil, but we have a common enemy.'
I am a friend to you Mr Teapot, but thats out of order. Your a sensible bloke, and I am surprised to find that you're religious. If it werent for atheists we'd all be sacrificing people on crosses, introducing plagues on our enemies and turning water into wine...wait that last bit sounds good.
'oh yeah? he's thrown a kettle over a pub, what have you done?'
"I am a friend to you Mr Teapot, but thats out of order. Your a sensible bloke, and I am surprised to find that you're religious. If it werent for atheists we'd all be sacrificing people on crosses, introducing plagues on our enemies and turning water into wine...wait that last bit sounds good."
Istvan, what you just said is out of order. You are basically saying that all religious people are stupid.
I'm not gonna take any sides here, but I will say that if someone is religious you should respect their beliefs. Whether God exists or not, Religion in many cases can help people through their lives, and it gives them something to believe in. I dont mind whether someone believes in God or not, but when someone insults another persons religion, thats just wrong.
Dont use my real name on this site. Thankyou. Oh and Teapot isnt showcasing his amazing weirdness by saying this,'What do we have that's not a car, and slightly faster than walking?'he was actually quoting from a show we both love.
TomF,my post was intended for Teapot, but if you want to take it as a general comment than you're quite welcome to it. I am surprised to find he is religious as Ive spent many evenings discussing un-religious matters, and Ive found we have a lot in common, however he is of the religious persuassion.
I also tire of such religious debates, but this being a post on that exact topic, than I believe this is the time and place to do this, and I believe we can do so maturely.
I stand by my post that suggests religious people are niave. I dont need to respect their believes, I can however ignore them, which I often do.
Youve mentioned how religion is good for people, teaches them morals, gives them a purpose if you will. What about religious wars? How can a war be religious when almost all religion sees killing as a sin? What about when mass corporations take advantage of religious events like Christmas and Easter after nothing more than money? What about when the legal system incorporates religion into the law and than justifies the killing of a murderer (? Surely 'God' should be their judge and not us. These examples seem hipocritical of all the ways religion should benefit society, and the closer you look you'll see that everythings a sham.
Perhaps religion meant something back in the day, before science had advanced, and we have things like the internet and tv to inform us otherwise, but today it meands nothing. We are aware of the faults, lies and myths of religion and still people choose to believe. Which is all good and well because that is their choice, and if not for that choice I would not have such a juicy arguement to enjoy.
The way I see it is if someone is born into religion, raised from birth that way, in a happy household and never experienced otherwise than they havent chosen that path and their veiws are always going to be bias. To me, in todays society, atheism represents that someone has made a choice, a choice that they will not believe in the fairy tales of their forefathers, and to me thats an important sign.
In concluding, believe in what you want, I only care if you get annoyed at people who choose not to believe in anything. Thanks for reading. Good night!
'oh yeah? he's thrown a kettle over a pub, what have you done?'
Yeah istvan, I don't like flame wars because they usually end up with one side being sore, and disagreements online take a while to be patched up. and maybe you will particularly like me someday.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
In reply to Istvan's post, yeah you've made a few good points there, but I'd like to take some a little further.
"I stand by my post that suggests religious people are niave. I dont need to respect their believes, I can however ignore them, which I often do."
Right, okay. I don't give a shit if you ignore religion, that's fine with me. But when you insult religion, you are insulting something that people base their lives around, and that's just fucking harsh.
Next paragraph you talk about religious wars which I have to agree are pointless and a waste of time. Also you talk about religious events being overwhelmed by the commercial side of things, which is also true. Often we get so caught up in these events that we forget the true meaning behind them.
"Perhaps religion meant something back in the day, before science had advanced, and we have things like the internet and tv to inform us otherwise, but today it meands nothing. We are aware of the faults, lies and myths of religion and still people choose to believe."
You see, the way you phrase that is out of order. Religion may mean nothing to you, but many people base their lives on it, and surely it means something to them?
"To me, in todays society, atheism represents that someone has made a choice, a choice that they will not believe in the fairy tales of their forefathers, and to me thats an important sign."
Religion is also a choice. No one is "forced" to believe anything, at least not where I live. And you describle religious scriptures as "fairy tales". There is little proof that religious scriptures are true, but there is even less proof that relious scriptures are false. You cannot call them "fairy tales" because you dont actually know whether they are facts or not.
In conclusion, ignore religion if you will, but think twice before you go around insulting religion like an obnoxious bastard.
Actually I am not wrong, everything I said was a fact. JP, you need to learn to show people some respect and stop throwing your stupid insults around. You just seem to want to start flamewars, instead of having a good debate, as is demonstrated by the fact that you insult people more than you give any rational reasons for your arguments.
99 percent chance that the above post is 100 percent correct.
Do you know what's worse than having a religion in general? Not having ANY religion. Come on, there OBVIOUSLY is a god? Not doing anything about it isn't gonna help. It was recorded that Jesus fulfilled 62 prophecies in the Roman thingy. The odds of that happening on accident is less than the odds of picking one random ion out of every ion in the entire universe. There were 10 recorded plagues in Egypt when the Israelites were slaves. How were all the first-born males slain?
Of course, that's proof, which i recall saying was bad, so don't point out the fact that I am a hippocrite. Really. Sorry about the bad metaphors. It was REALLY late and I wasn't feeling good...
Oh well. If something at all, at LEAST take a side. Oh, and Muz, most of those people who commit suicide are Islam and Muslim (and were probably just stupid anyways).
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
JP, you need to learn to show people some respect and stop throwing your stupid insults around.You just seem to want to start flamewars, instead of having a good debate, as is demonstrated by the fact that you insult people more than you give any rational reasons for your arguments.
I don't see JP insulting many people around here. He's responded well to everyone, with hardly any offensive words. I believe you may be addressing the wrong person or maybe mistook some of his comments.
istvan:
I myself am a religious person, though I pretty much follow my own version of Islam, instead of going with the heavily modified versions of the religion over the years. While you're right in some ways in that atheism represents a choice, in most ways today, it doesn't. A lot of people become athiests just so they could look at porn, have extramaritial sex, gamble, and drink all the beer they want, whether they realise it or not. It's more of curing guilt rather than free will most of the time.
As I see it, most religious wars are pointless. Truth is, if you look carefully enough, you'll notice that 90% of the aggressors of a religious war are just using religion as a cover-up for power.
The Crusades? Political. It let all those feuding European nations focus their wars on one common enemy. Just take a look at history during that time and you'll understand.
The 9/11 incident? Political or economical. I'll not mention much on it now, but if you look, all of the evidence on how the suicide bombers were Muslims were very, very poor and only accepted because people WANTED revenge on someone but didn't know who it was. I could write a whole book on it.
The kidnappings in the area of the Phillipines? Political as well. They want their own country, so why not kidnap people and say it's in the name of religion?
Religion in itself is not a problem. It's how people interpret religious scriptures and use it to their needs that cause so many problems in the world. And there are those annoying clerics who make up stuff just for fun or to be noted down in history. Yes, there are plenty of naive religious people but just as many naive atheists. Unfortunately, the naive just go with peer pressure.
Philipe:
That was one of the poorest debate points I've ever seen. It would only work in front of a bunch of believers, but you've left flaws all over the place. "If there is a Paul" indeed... of course there's one . LOL, a simple glance at Christianity would tell anyone that.
For one thing, you have no mention of the 'proof'. IMHO, sad thing is, God just left us here to figure out everything for ourselves. Well, there were several clues a long, long time ago, but as clues go, people tend to bend and twist them to their own needs. To take your metaphor, many people took your "Rock Solid Proof", planted trees around it, carved their names in it, and started some massive amusement park all over it. You'd be lucky to find where the heck the "Rock Solid Proof" used to be... so most people just go to some nearby brainwashing roller coaster ride.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Do you know what's worse than having a religion in general? Not having ANY religion. Come on, there OBVIOUSLY is a god? Not doing anything about it isn't gonna help. It was recorded that Jesus fulfilled 62 prophecies in the Roman thingy. The odds of that happening on accident is less than the odds of picking one random ion out of every ion in the entire universe. There were 10 recorded plagues in Egypt when the Israelites were slaves. How were all the first-born males slain?
Of course, that's proof, which i recall saying was bad, so don't point out the fact that I am a hippocrite. Really. Sorry about the bad metaphors. It was REALLY late and I wasn't feeling good...
Oh well. If something at all, at LEAST take a side. Oh, and Muz, most of those people who commit suicide are Islam and Muslim (and were probably just stupid anyways).
Come on JP, if everyone was offended by a religious statement or symbol, then there would be NO religion. You can't fully understand and accept a religion without doing something about it, because that's part of the religion. Church and state is stupid. It's practically saying that you can have a religion but you can't do anything about it anyways.
Look, I wasn't saying all the christians should kill every atheist. That's not neccesary. I'm just saying that you can punch the guy who's about to murder you or attack the guy who's about to mug you. Come on, that SHOULD be a given, but noooooo, its what's politically correct that is right these days. If there was no violence, than the world would still be fighting over stuff in debate. We would still have slaves, right? Nothing would happen in the world. Just think about it.
But in the end, theres 9 to 1 ratio of Christians to Everyone else in America, so conform to the patterns of this world!! BWAHAHAHA!! WE COULD KILL YOU EASILY!! GIVE IN TO PEER PRESSURE!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!
Look, stop talking about Christianity in the tone of "Religion is still good for people whether its right or wrong" plz, bcuz that is just stupid. It's not the FACT of the religion being upholded, its merely the religion itself (Christianiy most of the time ) that's doing them good. God blesses those who follow him. (DUH)
Alas, my ceaseless rambling must cease, for I'm getting tired of typing a lot. Oh well. Just to let you know, I'm not trying to be TOO serious about this stuff. I think we would be a lot better off arguing in a more effecient manner, not like the average Religion vs. Religion debate. In the end, everyone walks away more determined that they are right. It's happened to me in EVERY stupid debate. Let's keep things simple (I'm gonna get carried away)
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
A reply two posts before I posted.... damn, you're fast, Phillipe .
BTW, I really don't understand this thing between Jews, Christians, and Muslims. I mean, it's obvious from whatever tainted version of all the scriptures that all of them worship the same God. The Bible mentioned some last prophet from one of Abraham's children (i.e Muhammad) and the Quran's got plenty of mention of stuff from the Bible. I haven't really read the Torah yet, but it's pretty much the same as both, or so I heard.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Damn, another reply before I posted. I've got to admire your typing skills .
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Sorry, i wasn't saying that islams or muslims are stupid in that second or third paragraph there. I meant those particular people just don't know what they are doing. Sorry if I offend you, i do it ALL of the time. I'm used to it. Just remember i only visit forums when i don't feel very good or am REALLY tired, so forgive me if I say something stupid or offensive.
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
Nah, you started before me and i replyed to your other comment. Also, the thing was posted twice for some reason. Blech, i am really depressed right now over personal matters...
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
Sorry if I offend you, i do it ALL of the time.
Another bad habit to kick.
No offense taken. I personally think half of the suicide bombers are idiots anyways. It's specifically mentioned in the Quran that one should not aggressively attack, but I guess most of the terrorist cults omit it. Thing is suicide is considered equal to murder (i.e. instant hell) but dying to defend Islam is the best thing that could happen to a Muslim (i.e. instant ticket to the best heaven has to offer, mainly something to prevent Muslims from running away from battle). Since they suicide bomb offensively, but believe that they're on the defense, who knows where they'd end up, especially with the 'out-terrorizing' method being used in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
I'd admire them suicide bombers as much as I'd admire the Japanese kamikazes, if only most of them weren't doing it for purely selfish reasons.
Mr Cofee:
I see the way he said it as pretty harmless.
Edited by the Author.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Wow, these forums need to be more like AIM or something. Everyone's sitting and watching... then replying... then watching... creepy
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
CONGRATS TO JP! He started a REAALLY long freaking forum! If i were old enough to have a drink, i probably wouldn't anyways. :s I know its not wrong, i'd simply get carried away with it. You gotta have limits to things you can't control...
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
OK, many things to address in this post. Last things first:
Mr. Coffee, that was taken out of context, sorry if you didn't like it. Also I don't believe anything you said was a fact because you didn't back it up by statistics.
Philippe: "MORONS THAT THINK BELIEVING MAKES SOMETHING TRUE" I believe that is a direct quote from you. No explanation needed for why I think that is funny.
Another quote: "most of those people who commit suicide are Islam and Muslim" WRONG!!! The highest rates of suicide are in: Lithuania, Russia, and Belarus! Why do you insist on making up statistics? And you think Muslims are stupid? Then why are they taking all of the American tech jobs?
Another quote: "Church and state is stupid." No, its very good. It doesn’t say that you can't practice your beliefs, just do it on private property.
And Philippe says: "If there was no violence, than the world would still be fighting over stuff in debate." This is true, I could just kill you Philippe and have my way, but debates and votes are more efficient. That’s why we go to the Polls on election day instead of mauling Bush supporters. (or whatever political candidate you dislike)
Another quote: "But in the end, there’s 9 to 1 ratio of Christians to Everyone else in America... WE COULD KILL YOU EASILY!! GIVE IN TO PEER PRESSURE!!!"
Well in the end there is about 2 billion Christians in the world (counting all the sects and prelatures). That leaves 4 billion non-Christians for you to deal with.
Ok, looking forward to how you reply.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
I'd hate to see what this thread would be like if the forums weren't divided into pages .
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
Look, i already said, let's not take things to seriously. Let's not be jerk wads or anything bcuz that makes me feel bad...
Honestly though, This was sort of fun until everything got serious... but hey, I can just make fun of everyone who thinks I'm wrong! (for instance, I called JP a jerk wad (That's my word, don't use it, it's pending a copyright))
Plz don't say I'm a hippocrite, I'm aware that i can sound mean, but i don't mean to. I have an odd way of actually talking about religion in arguements (which is nice to ease tension) so don't just assume I'm being harsh
Edited by the Author.
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
Also, the entire world doesn't affect one little country. I mean, think of one of those little countries like Andorra that refuse to take sides! And really, that was just a failed attempt at humor, you don't have to go and through all the hard trouble to contradict something that people don't neccesarily care about (or at least i don't really care about )
I was talking about suicide bombing, not normal suicide. Thats just for really depressed and crazy people (hey, it's true, accept it or not ) Of course, you might of thought I was talking about bombing too, but just making sure.
Muz: The odds are, you already knew this, but what the hey. Judaism used to be correct before Jesus and the New testament, but not anymore, bcuz they don't believe in Jesus. They are still waiting for "the true son of god" (not being cynacle, just quoting ) Sorry if you already knew that (<-Another Smiley)
When i said the whole violence thing, you missed the first little disclaimer at the top.
But lets keep things non-cynacle and evil malicious for now, bcuz that sucks the fun out of religious debates (yes, there IS fun)
Edited by the Author.
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
Quite frankly, DC is not a place for religious arguments, if you want to continue, please use msn or some other non-exclusive portal of communication. The amount of n00bs posting here is ridiculous, stop wasting your time here and make games!!! GAMES DAMNIT!!!!
Games are one of the few good things in modern civilisation, and the gaming industry is becoming corrupt (movie license MY EYE!!!), so I urge freeware developers like yourselves to put away petty discrepensies and make sweet beautiful games together.
Can't... move... on... evil... forum... washing away... my faith... AAACK!!! Ugh, I'm going to bed, really. My fingers hurt from typing and grabbing diet cokes
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
Yea, check out the Forum Topic under DC Questions. I'm ashamed!
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
Are you really that childish? I really don't know what's wrong with you. I’m serious, what could possibly posses you to make yourself look like such an idiot?
Not only have you provided this forum with zero content, and you post immature personal attacks. If your opinion isn’t represented, then spend time and post a thought out reply.
Is it because I thoroughly shot down your movement for this forum to be disbanded? Do you think this is the place for stupid comments towards other TDC members?
If I am the "n00b" why is it that I am taking the higher ground here? I learned quickly that smart ass comments aren’t taken well here, and am currently trying to gain some respect. It seems like you’re acting self righteous, the way a person does when they know they are wrong.
If your going to reply with STFU, don't bother, what is that going to accomplish? Your next move is going to determine a lot now.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
Anne-Marie: No, they have to share one.
Pete Nattress Cheesy Bits img src/uploads/sccheesegif
Registered 23/09/2002
Points 4811
16th April, 2004 at 06:09:42 -
damien, quit tarnishing an otherwise sensible debate. and don't assume to tell people what DC is for and what it isn't, you have absoloutly no authority to do so.
My opinion is this: Let people follow their religion. I hate people who believe that it is their job to actively disprove the beliefs of others, which makes me sick.
I am catholic, and many people I know seem to be offended by that and try every chance they have to put me down about it. Christianity seems the main target for aetheists, people often make jokes about child molestation and such. As far as child molestation goes, that is not part of the church. Some bad eggs commit it, but some bad aetheists do it too. It is not a belief of the church and should therefore not be associated with it.
I attend a catholic school, out of my own free will (I chose to go there) and apallingly, the catholics there are outnumbered by aetheists, who laugh at our school masses, which sickens me. I mean, by all means, follow what ever belief or lack thjere of, just don't go round mocking the beliefs of others.
Hey, everybody! Ok, I'm sorry for quiting on yall guys, but I really need to start working on my game. I spend way to much time on this forum, and I haven't worked in a while. I am aware some of you will think I'm just giving up on this arguement, but I'll try and post sommething whenever I'm bored. JP, you've got some good points, but I'm just afraid this arguement is just going to be narrowed done to "is not!", "is too!", in an enlongated way (if I didn't use that word right, you know what I mean ) I said it before, and I'll fo ahead and quote myself, "In the end, everyone walks away more determined that they are right." (hey, I'm quoting myself as if I were actually wise!) But really, I'll keep reading. Until my next post, I bid to you, whatever!
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
haha @ JD's (Dustin G.) comment
And now time for some explanations...
"It was recorded that Jesus fulfilled 62 prophecies in the Roman thingy. The odds of that happening on accident is less than the odds of picking one random ion out of every ion in the entire universe."
Well, the chance that the recordigns are false is signifciantly higher than that the results are true.
"But in the end, theres 9 to 1 ratio of Christians to Everyone else in America, so conform to the patterns of this world!! BWAHAHAHA!! WE COULD KILL YOU EASILY!! GIVE IN TO PEER PRESSURE!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!"
Actually, the ratio is a lot smaller than that. Probably around 5:1 is the closest, and that's being high. And remember that there's over 4 billion non-Christians, and Christians aren't the largest religious group (Muslims are, if I recall correctly).
Oh, and I agree with Muz on this: religion it self isn't bad, it's the people that make it bad, because they realize there's a lot of power in religion and they sieze it. Mohammed originally didn't have any clerics or holy men in Islam, but eventually the mullahs and imams took control.
I don't believe you. What had Constantine to gain? He was the first christian imperor of Rome and moved the center of the Roman empire to Constantinopel, a very fameos city he founded.
Hey, i have time for quick comment: This is a long forum JoNick guy. Quote people whenever you refer to something they say. People don't wanna look thru more than 90 posts for what your talking about
Just to go ahead and clarify (I didn't know until after i posted this comment), JoNickArt is refering to the original post by JP. It may have been obvious to everyone else, but let me go ahead and tell everyone: PLEASE QUOTE PEOPLE WHEN YOU REPLY TO THIER COMMENTS, its really annoying if you dont know what your talking about. Also, make sure your point has not already been disproven unless you have contradicting proof that reproves your point.
That was long anyways. I just can't stop, can I
Edited by the Author.
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
Actually, JP, I believe Muslims are the largest group, I remember reading/hearing it from somewhere, and I generally don't remember things that are from unreliable sources. I could be wrong, though.
I'm a religious person but not in the same sense as most of the people who have posted here. I consider myself a Satanist, on the Anton Szander LaVey branch. I have to say that what some people know (or don't know) about their own religion is laughable, especially Philipe (I'm not trying to single you out or target you specifically, it's just that a lot of what you had to say was... questionable, to say the least).
I think it's great that the Christians and Catholics on this forum are standing up for their beliefs. I would think very lowly of them if they didn't. And TomF, well done for your retaliation to insulting something people base their life around, I just couldn't have put that better. I get shit from egotistical devil-hating purists all the time, and they don't even realise what they're attacking. Nothing angers me more.
Yeah, I'd also like to say that it's good to see JP did his research before analyzing religion. Most people that try something like this don't know what they're doing, and their idea of religion is similar to the infuriatingly ignorant statement, "The Bible is just a book some nutters wrote to get money and power." that Wizard Games wrote.
[EDIT] Just a note before people point fingers and try the conversion game on me, yes, I do consider myself a Satanist, but that does not give you any right to tell me what I believe in is wrong. Thank you.
[EDIT 2] About a comment Muz made... "A lot of people become athiests just so they could look at porn, have extramaritial sex, gamble, and drink all the beer they want, whether they realise it or not."
Sorry Muz, but people don't 'become' an athiest for any reason other than they don't believe in a God(s) or a Diety(ies). That's what athiest means. You can't sit down one day and think, "I'm not going to believe in God anymore because I want to have premarital sex". If you truly believe in something, it's a lot harder than that to stop believing, it's a very long and gradual process of questioning and self-interpretation.
joNickArt - wrong, he was not a Christian, if you read my original post I said "the official religion was sun worship, the cult of Sol Invictus, and Constantine was it's head priest."
Now, 300 years after Jesus' crucifixion, Christ's followers had multiplied to such a large number that it threatened to split Rome into two. So Constantine backed the winning horse.
Constantine was a LIFELONG pagan, who was baptized on his deathbed, to weak to protest.
Rick I could hardly believe that Christians were number one, but it is, and here are the numbers:
Christianity: 2 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 850 million
Buddhism: 360 million
Chinese traditional religion: 225 million
primal-indigenous: 150 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 95 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 14 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 6 million
Jainism: 4 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 3 million
Tenrikyo: 2.4 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 700 thousand
Scientology: 600 thousand
Zoroastrianism: 150 thousand
Ranked in order, from largest to smallest.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
The whole Nicaea thing is wrong. Their were Christians before Conatantine. Christians in all countries were persecuted, unlike Jews. "So what?" you say, well this proves that the beliefs in Christ must have been of him as more than just a prophet, otherwise they would not have been persecuted.
So Constantine did not "invent" most of the new testament as we know it today.
Ok, most of that is questionable, theoretical and possibly hypothetical.
But what JP is missing is that the gospels were in fact written around 73AD (assuming Christ was born in 3AD, being the current "accurate figure"), which is long before 330 A.D, and clearly before the birth of Constantine in 306AD.
Of course, the one fatal flaw in this argument is the undisputed fact that the romans clearly had access to a time machine, and could have easily influenced the writing of the gospels.
Though I usually don't associate with Satanists (or are you a "sa-tanist" they are different), Rick raises valid points. I am not insulting Rick or anything, I respect his beliefs and tolerate them, but I don't agree with them.
Also to note is a view of aetheists that things can simply BE. This is really scientifically irrational. When you have breakfast, and you pour your cereal, someone made that serial, someone in a factory. When you want a house, someone has to make it for you. When you drive your car, someone made your car.
When you live on the Earth, someone made the earth.
Someone? I just associate the earth and the universe filled with a bunch of molecules, mostly Hydrogen. I still belive in God and all that, but I belive in half religious and half scientific
n/a
Pete Nattress Cheesy Bits img src/uploads/sccheesegif
Registered 23/09/2002
Points 4811
18th April, 2004 at 11:46:20 -
i know scientifically minded christians can say things like "well, god made the big bang, and everything formed after that, so he did create us and the world". but, as an atheist, i can take that a step back and ask, who created god? where did he come from. and that's the proverbial end of the line. where did god come from?
Questions like that are beyond human understanding in my opinion. The answer would be, God has always existed, nothing made him. If you ask someone who does not believe in God how the atoms which created the Big Bang came into being then they could not give you a good answer either. I don't think us humans will ever understand the answer to that question.
99 percent chance that the above post is 100 percent correct.
I wish I didn't have to explain things over and over again. As I said before, Constantine commissioned and financed a new bible, and omitted gospels that spoke of him as a mortal, then embellished the gospels that made him godlike.
God, now I have to review some more for you Teapot:
"Their were Christians before Constantine"
Of course there were Christians before Constantine, and there were Christians in Rome being persecuted BEFORE Constantine. Here is a timeline for you:
303 AD Diocletian forbade Christian worship.
306 AD Constantine I became the emperor of the western provinces
313 AD Constantine and Licinius, the emperor in the East granted freedom of worship to the Christians.
"So Constantine did not 'invent' most of the new testament as we know it today."
He did indeed, refer back to the Council of Nicaea. But here, I will outline it for you:
During the transmogrification:
Egyptian Sun Disks became: Halos
Isis nursing Horus became: Mary nursing Jesus
Mithras, born on December 25, died, buried in a rock tomb, then resurrected in THREE days.
Also born on December 25th: Osiris, Adonis, and Dionysus.
Even Christian worship was moved, Constantine shifted it to coincide with the pagan's veneration day of the sun, or Sunday.
As you can see the bible already starts to fall apart there, you don't go to Church on Sunday because that is when God rested.
Ok Teapot, there you go. Everything I have said is backed by dates and facts.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
He was too christians, but you might be right about that baptiseing thingy.
Are you familiar withg the expression "In hoc signo vince"? It's latin and means "In this sign we shall win". It was Constantine, yes Constantine the Great who said it once before a battle.
According to a nation- fameos TV documentary I saw once about Swedish pre- history, the handle of the crusader's sword was carved with just this text. Why would the ones which fought for God carry a weapon wearing a sentence a Solgod priest once said?
Plus, the sign Constantine saw was a cross in the sky.
312 the Battle of the Milvian Bridge: In hoc signo vince, “In this sign conquer”.
Indeed it was said by Constantine, here is how the story goes:
312 AD Constantine had a vision that he would defeat his major rival if he fought under the sign of the cross. So Constantine followed his vision and was victorious.
That is how Christians like to believe it happened, but Historians know that Constantine backed the winning horse.
Why, you ask, would a pagan emperor choose Christianity as the official religion?
Because he would either have to convert the Christians into pagans, or pagans into Christians to unite Rome. Christianity had more followers, so he reinforced it.
Historians still marvel at the brilliance with which Constantine converted the pagans to Christianity. By fusing pagan symbols, dates, and rituals into the growing Christian tradition, he created a hybrid religion acceptable to both parties.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
Just so we can know, where are you getting this JP? I'm not saying this as if you didn't have a source, I would just like to see, and so would a lot of others probably. Is it a bunch of websites or just 1, is it a book, just what? What your saying is THEORETICALLY possible, and I can see how, but we need more than your word alone. I'm not trying to neccisarily go against YOU, I just want to do a little research on my own, cuz it might be that your source is incorrect in the first place . What is it?
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
hmm... just for the people who said the bible was nuts... read it all, then your view will be concidered i really don't reccomend saying bad things about things you don't know anything about, once you find out information, then you can combat it.
- Alee
Alee is a Moo proggrammer and is a 3d graphics artist.
Micro Pedia World History
Da Vinci Code
Through the Looking Glass
Film:
Dogma
I may have missed some sources because I don't keep my history in explorer. Also I don't just get dates and facts from one source, because they often contradict themselves. So I listed about half of my actual website sources because two would be redundant.
Proof I double check facts:
World History said:
312 AD Constantine had a vision that he would defeat his major rival if he fought under the sign of the cross. So Constantine followed his vision and was victorious.
Department of Classics said:
312 the Battle of the Milvian Bridge: In hoc signo vince, “In this sign conquer.”, the Christian Caesar.
Christian Caesar is wrong, so I checked a third source, the Da Vinci Code, and World History Checked out.
Also, I had already written that Constantine had been converted on his deathbed, whilst surfing on the internet, I found this in the World History:
337 AD Constantine died. He converted to Christianity on his death bed. His three sons and two nephews fought for the title of emperor.
I also always spell-check with Microsoft Works before submitting.
So, as you can see, I put none of my own theories or opinions into my posts, and use multiple sources.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
Only one fo those sources repeats what you said in ur original post JP. I'm going to do a little research to see if any of it was based on RELIABLE evidence.
Truth be told, the Bible is nuts.
I mean, would you believe someone who said "I just made a woman out of this dudes rib."
Note that I mean nuts in a random kinda way, although some of the zealots out there seriously frighten me.
Craps, I'm an old man!
Pete Nattress Cheesy Bits img src/uploads/sccheesegif
Registered 23/09/2002
Points 4811
18th April, 2004 at 17:56:58 -
i'll answer that one carol, the bible to many represents spiritual meaning rather than actual fact. it's the ones who interpret it as fact that cause the problems as far as i see.
It's still craziness, also a good place for stories (I myself have not found a religion that fits my views yet so the Book is more of a story time for me)
Ok teapot, you have confirmed to me that you understand nothing.
I suppose your 330 reference, is in response to my quote here:
"Well I'm about to tell you. I'm going to take you back to around 330 A.D. to Rome, where the pagan emperor Constantine the Great collated the Bible as we know it today. "
No shit the council was in 325, and I have stated that many times in this forum. But you see it didn’t happen overnight, transmogrification was a long process, which why I said around 330AD, I wasn’t focusing on only the council.
"The purpose of the council was to diminish any religious hostilities and to proclaim his faith, and not to strengthen Christianity."
It was to diminish the war between Pagan's and Christians in Rome, Jesus Christ!! That’s what I have said!! Having Rome united under Christianity gives strength to it you idiot, it also gives power to Constantine.
The gospels in the Bible are not original, your sources, if any, are wrong. And you still didn’t respond to the fact that some Gospels were omitted entirely. Some of the Gospels are in the Vatican Archives, unreleased, because they are completely contradictory.
And, after all my posts, you could only find three that were wrong?
And the facts of mine that you claim are wrong are actually correct, or misunderstandings on your part.
Stop coming back with these half baked answers, I'm tired of having to repeat myself.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
"The whole Nicaea thing is wrong. Their were Christians before Conatantine. Christians in all countries were persecuted, unlike Jews. "So what?" you say, well this proves that the beliefs in Christ must have been of him as more than just a prophet, otherwise they would not have been persecuted. "
If you believe it it doesn't make it true. You could say the same thing about Islam, as Mohammed was persecuted as were other Muslims, or other religions. As a matter of fact, with your arguement, almost any religion is true, since those religions were persecuted.
It's nice that Teapot mentioned the fact that the gospels we use today were written about 70 years after the birth of Chirst and probably 40 years after his death. How accurate are their accounts of him going to be? Not very accurate.
What does anyone hope to achieve through this argument? Seriously, religious debate is useless, JP can't turn Christians into Atheists, and I can't turn aetheists into believers. If your aim, JP, is to "inform", then why? Again, by "informing" us about Nicaea, what have you achieved?
Information is not an achievement, unless you can change things enlightenment is useless.
just sayin to that guy who said the bible is nuts, it just illistrates my point that you should read it first, its doesn't actually mean that God made eve out of adams RIB its out of a part of adam, just like when you hear, God made humans in his image, it means his spiritual image.
OH BTW everyone know december 25th wasn't actually when he was born, its just when we choose to celebrate it. - yeah i know sum1s already said that
also bishops aren't a part of all christian faith. they are only in high churches generally.
"The Bible is just a book some nutters wrote to get money and power."
you can prove this i suppose, or becuase this is what you think makes it real, jesus existed, its true. it can be proved.
If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it from your face. If your right hand causes you to sin, remove it and cast it from your body.
I read something like that in a Bible I stole from a hotel room... it freaked me out, so I threw it out the car window. True story.
Jesus exxageratees alot in his parables, it doesn't mean it like that. i'm not really very clever in this stuff but from what i gather in church it means...
for example if you go to the pub with your mate "Chris", who is an alcaholic, you always end up waking up on the street and getting put in jail for criminal damage. you probably shouldn't go to the pub with chris so you don't end up in a situation like that. just take neccecery mesures to help stop you "sinning"..
yeah JP may have a point, but so may jesus. so just take a chance and try and learn about it a bit... you never know it could change your life...
Alee is a Moo proggrammer and is a 3d graphics artist.
And constantine didn't make christianity to the national religion. Why would he spend his time changing christianity so his people could be christians, if the NEXT imperor was the one who converted them?
And I didn't say Constantine won the battle, I just took it up to prove that he was christian, which you denied.
What exactly was changed besides common sybols (like halos and Isis and Horus whatever)? Does it matter that we worship on Sunday instead of any other day? Its not like we do it because of the other gods, right? We just do it because that happens to be what it says, but as long as you worship God anyways, does it truly matter? Why would Christianity fall ifseveral things were blended together with it? Once again, the things everyone "disproves" about Christianity are the modern misconceptions of it, not the thing itself. What about the Bible is what it originally was, and what about it was changed? If it was just a few symbols, then why on Earth should anyone care? I'm not saying that this is true in the first place, I'm just asking "What does it matter?" if it were true.
About the eye and hand thing...What it means (I'm agreeing with Al (Heck, I agree with everything he's said so far) is that you should limit yourself to a point you wouldn't be forced to sin. Like, if you somehow agreed to hot tub with some hot chick for some other reason than lust (not that anyone would do it for any other reason anyways), then got in the tub, could you resist looking at her in lust? No, of course not (unless you happen to be queer). As reality would have it, you'd be looking at her every 2 seconds! But, if you never got in the tub in the first place, you would never be in the ludicrously tempting postion to sin, right? Exactly. That's all that the hand thing means. Speaking of metaphorical stuff in the bible, not EVERYTHING in truth is metaphorical. Although, a lot of it is, but still. In case your wondering Shab, read Revelation (last book in the Bible). If none of the Apocalypse is metaphorical, then that would be really wierd, now wouldn't it? Just read it and try to comprehend it instead of presumptuously thinking that this is the most randomly stupid thing in existence.
Once again, the top of this post does not seem to apply to the text below it. Oh well, who really cares?
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
joNickArt- First of all, it's spelled emperor, not "imperor"
After that, I lost you. It seems you are trying to pass off your questions as facts. He spent his time altering Christianity to appeal to the Pagans, so the Christians and pagans would stop warring.
In 361 AD, The Julian became the next emperor. He tried to stop the spread of Christianity. He didn’t convert them, I don't know where you get your incorrect information.
Also, winning the battle isn’t the point, he did win the battle, but used it as an excuse to switch the current religion to Christianity.
/Edit: Philipe, I will get back to you tomorrow.
Edited by the Author.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
Ok, its nice to know that I will soon be schooled. Whatever. But I just read some of the sites, and I know this will sound kinda like a stupid thing to bring up, but you're gonna have to realize that those sites are not any different than what JP is saying. In OTHER words, that means that these don't really have any factual evidence against christianity. For all we know, these are just random claims that are only potentially possible. If two sites state the same thing, why would that make it any more true? If you ask two christains "Was Jesus the son of God", they're probably gonna say "yes". Two sources don't make one thing true. But that's not my point, that's just pointing something out so no one tries to use that as proof later. My point is the exact same thing as with JP: How do we know their claims are true, and how do we know thier evidence is reliable? Maybe these are just a bunch of rumors, maybe it isn't, but the point is we need to know. Simply put, how do we know this isn't a bunch of bull-plop? Just because they say its recorded in text doesn't make it neccisarily so, let alone the fact itself be true. Also, please don't point out the fact that the Bible would be considered text, we know that, and if the mere fact it said it made everything it said true, we would probably use that as proof. But of course that's not true.
Hey, what do you know, I'm no longer trying to be hasty about this forum. Oh well, I've lost the will to care about it anyways.
Edit: Yes, I suck with metaphors, and you probably do too, it's just that you probably never tried. JerkWad hippocrites.
Edited by the Author, who probably is better looking than you are.
Edited by the Author.
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
Sorry Muz, but people don't 'become' an athiest for any reason other than they don't believe in a God(s) or a Diety(ies). That's what athiest means. You can't sit down one day and think, "I'm not going to believe in God anymore because I want to have premarital sex". If you truly believe in something, it's a lot harder than that to stop believing, it's a very long and gradual process of questioning and self-interpretation.
The thing is, it goes through people's heads over and over again. They go all, "What? My religion won't let me get drunk? But getting drunk is cool!" and they search for more evidence either disproving the fact that getting drunk is against religion OR they could just actively attempt to disbelieve in this religion thing. Either way, some athiests tend to lean towards the end, and as religion goes, the more buddies you have who support your beliefs, the stronger your belief. And thus, it's a religion spreading all by itself.
Personally, I'm wondering whether God also worships something of his own. It's like we're little thingies in a computer program in God's computer. And maybe God's also a little thingy in some computer program in a computer of some Mega-God. It's a disturbing thought.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
I've heard the computer game interpretation before. Not that there is a higher god in my opinion though. Just think about it. It's like Sim City 3000 but with more options. He can send UFOs, meteors, robotic monsters, tornados, and even pick us up and drop us to our bloody doom! In fact, I'll bet that there is a little pointer flying around in the sky right now!
Another one of my favorite jokes of this relavance is a Far Side joke. God is a chef who baked the Earth for 20 minutes. He added some liberals, conservatives, enviormentalists, animals, plagues, and just to spice it up a notch, jerks.
Of course, there are infinite jokes in this matter, so I won't continue. Dang, I'm gonna go read me some Far Side! (Runs out of the room)
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
I still prefer the "Life is a Computer Game" metaphor. God does everything randomly, kinda like those DMs do in AD&D, for those of you AD&D players. Horoscope, feng shui, etc, is just a way to determine what the dice rolls mean.
And further more, what of that theory that everything in the world is random? Almost everything calculated in physics & chemistry are just what would happen out of probability. Air/water resistance is little more than figuring out which molecules would hit the thing on average and how strongly. It's still random, but an average of what would happen. Same goes for other stuff like radioactive half-lives, energy conversion, refraction, etc.
That way, miracles can happen. Water turning into wine? Nothing more than a whole bunch of yeast getting into the right place at the right time and speed. Army of frogs? What happens when snakes are unable to reproduce. Walking on water? Proper water resistance and air resistance with the right amount of 'luck' (or maybe the water was actually ice). Sticks turning into snakes? Drugs injected into the snake, making it stiff (or maybe mass hallucinations).
Thus, all those counter-religion theories have been contrasted. That is, the ones about Nostradamus being uber-accurate and feng shui being so effective, and supposedly 'false teachings'.
Personally, I think the weird stuff in this world, like the Big Bang theory being proven and the wierd properties of water at low tempratures is pretty much my basis in believing that there's a higher power in this world. It's not about miracles being performed; Discovery Channel's already convinced me that plenty of biblical stories are just coincidence. The real proof is the likelihood of such coincidences happening (dice rolls controlled by a Greater Power) and the fact that those prophets knew about it.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
I just meant that Constantine didn't make christianity to the national religion, and then I asked why he didn't IF he really made those things you said.
Muz: Not meaning to offend, but you speak of randomness, and that includes probability. I understand the INCREDIBLY small odds of these things happening, but what about ALL of them happening in Christianity? Have you heard of the saying "the simplest explanation is probably the right one"? In other words, that is the most unlikely thing to EVER happen, thereby, the other explanations are probably going to be right rather than your explanation. Plus, it sounds ridiculous. It's a lot more sensical to a lot of people for there to be a god instead of all that luck. Then what are the odds of Christianity being right? Thats a question that arguements like this are trying to conclude.
Edit: I forgot the bottom of what you said. I misinterpret stuff, so sorry about anything stupid i said. But wheter or not I was contradicting you, the above content is still true
Edited by the Author.
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
That way, miracles can happen. Water turning into wine? Nothing more than a whole bunch of yeast getting into the right place at the right time and speed. Army of frogs? What happens when snakes are unable to reproduce. Walking on water? Proper water resistance and air resistance with the right amount of 'luck' (or maybe the water was actually ice). Sticks turning into snakes? Drugs injected into the snake, making it stiff (or maybe mass hallucinations)."
However, they're are no records indicating that snakes stopped reproducing (and there are still snakes), and since Moses threw down the snakes and then became sticks, that meant that he couldn't inject drugs into them.
And Philipe, JP is saying those things because they're fact (or he takes them as facts). If you were to follow your philosophy, you shouldn't believe anything at all, because someone could say differently and then it couldn't be true.
To me, I think life is a test... God gives us things little by little and you have to go with it. Thats why life isn't fair...
Whats at the end of the universe?
Whats the reason for living?
If you have a special person you can't stop thinking about, put this in your signature.
Hey, MY PHILIOSOPHY IS FLAWLESS YOU IGNORANT FOOL!! No, really, is it more sensical to you to have a god do these things or have it all a huge and ludicrously complicated scam? Of course, your way works too. Whatever
Edited by the Author.
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
Philippe: First off, everything in the bible was taken or borrowed from some other religion. Have you ever seen a drawing of god? He has long white hair and a long white beard. Who does that remind you of? The image of god himself was taken from Zeus!
What does it matter? It matters because the Bible is the foundation for Christianity, it matters because you should know the origin of your faith.
Next: "In OTHER words, that means that these don't really have any factual evidence against Christianity."
What does factual mean to you? Does it mean tangible evidence that includes names, dates, and places? The difference between my evidence and yours is that my facts are checkable, and can be traced back in any history book.
If you ask two Christians if Jesus was the son of god, and they say yes, you ask them how they know. They say, "it says it in the bible", and who wrote the bible? Moses, King David, King Solomon, Agur, Lemuel, Isaiah, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, Nahum, Zephaniah, Habakkuk, Joel, Jeremiah, Obadiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Ezra, Haggai, Zechariah, Malachi wrote the bible, along with other anonymous people. The bible didn't fall out of the goddamned sky. It wasn't written by God. No one has any first hand information from the guy.
Why do you believe in God? Because you were raised to. Your mother, your father, your minister, all shaped your faith. Same thing if your dad likes the 49ers, your going to root for them.
When you were little, you weren’t given pamphlets from all of the religions and asked which one you wanted to join, it was forced.
"Just because they say its recorded in text doesn't make it necessarily so, let alone the fact itself be true."
So what? Dinosaurs aren’t real? The evidence is tangible and real, you are trying to ignore the evidence. Of course having something written down doesn't make it true, what makes it true is if it really happened, and it all did.
"You can't sit down one day and think, "I'm not going to believe in God anymore because I want to have premarital sex"
That is a reason to believe in god! If you go and confess your sins and donate a large sum to the church, all is forgiven!
Muz: "That way, miracles can happen. Water turning into wine? Nothing more than a whole bunch of yeast getting into the right place at the right time and speed. Army of frogs? What happens when snakes are unable to reproduce. Walking on water? Proper water resistance and air resistance with the right amount of 'luck' (or maybe the water was actually ice). Sticks turning into snakes? Drugs injected into the snake, making it stiff (or maybe mass hallucinations). "
There is a simpler explanation than god, or mass hallucinations, it's called The Council of Nicaea. It is there where they embellished Jesus’ life.
joNickArt- He did make Christianity the official religion.
Steve Zissou: Anne-Marie, do all the interns get Glocks?
Well, yeah, just an excuse some religionists may use to explain the miracles in whatever epic book there is on them.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
That's not the point I was trying to make with the 2 christians thing. I was just mentioning that bcuz I didn't want to hear the question, "If the Constantine thing isn't right, then why do multiple sites claim it to be true?", when two Christians could be asked a similar question and respond in the way, thereby making you a hippocrite for saying a stupid question like that. I ALWAYS get a question like that whenever i argue over religion, sorry of you misunderstood .
On the Zues thing: Was there EVER a picture in the bible with god looking like Zues? I understand what you're trying to say though, so point taken.
I probably used Factual wrong, so thanks for pointing that out. But you know what I'm trying to say here, so why would that matter?
Speaking of "Why would that matter?", I'm asking what evidence is there that would defeat Christianity itself, not the common symbols of the bible that were misinterpreted. Let me ask you a question- Is the bible a picture book? Does it mention that all angels have halos? Did it have a picture of Mary Nursing Jesus, let alone mention that (actually, it probably did mention something about nursing )? Of course, isn't it common for mothers to nurse?
About the Gospels: The Bible was not thrown from heaven, and that is right. I have supported that fact. This is just a comment to go ahead and contradict some claims of the Gospels being wrong. The gospel was WRITTEN BY SINNERS, who screw up just like all humans do. If they mention the sayings of Jesus differently, its bcuz it was they either translted the wording badly (which applies to alot of Psalms and Proverbs)from Greek to English, or they simply wrote the basics of what Jesus was saying (and if that is true, then it would be understandable that they misinterpreted his lesson, perhaps?).
Note: I only mentioned the above to attempt defeating a common arguement that I hear WAY too much (the arguement of the Bible contradicting itself, which I think everyone has at least heard of).
About forgiveness: If you believe that Jesus is the son of God, then you will be forgiven and will go to heaven, granted that you repent. Of course, the Catholic belief is that the Pope grants the right to go to heaven (if I'm not mistaken ).
Donate a lot to the church? If a church taught that, that would be hilarious!
They know that the life of Jesus existed, they used carbon-dating on the various records (including the Bible). The Bible could not have been pieced together from scratch, it had to have had a begining before they changed it (that is, if they did change it to begin with ).
You know what would be nice? If they could go back to the grounds where Jesus died and look for evidence of an earthquake the time he did die (mentioned in the Gospels, I think John if not anything else).
That's all i feel like saying for now. Besides, the above content is probably boring and long anyways ... oh well
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
Oh, and about the whole confession & sin forgiving thing... being an atheist is a quick, cheap, and simple shortcut to it. How can you sin when there is no God? Perhaps that's what people what to believe... thus, like religion, atheism also springs from human hope and fear.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
Of course, i could get into the concept of Good and Evil, right? There can't be Good and Evil without any higher power, bcuz good and evil is determined by God's/ the Gods' will. Also, "sin" technically means "an act against the will of God" as far as Christianity concerns it. I know what you mean though, no offense . I wonder how many Christians, like me (as in me being a Christian, not being offended ), are offended by "thus, like religion, atheism also springs from human hope and fear". That is only a theory as for Christianity. Then again, one could argue that Christianity is only a theory, but i would think not
For those of you choosing between Atheism or Christianity (or at least looking for good points to bring up), there is a book by C.S. Lewis I believe that you should read. Someone say the name for me, i forget what it's called . You might know what I'm talking about anyways.
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
Actually, Philipe, Good and Evil is determined by the society you grow up in, not God.
Also, there have been times where the Church told people that donating to the church would clear them of their sins.
And let's not even begin looking at the differences in the Easter story in the four gospels. How come the most important story in Christianity doesn't have the same people in each of the gospels?
Really? Is it determined by your social society? If it were determined my the will of the whole society, then why would the whole society consistantly defeat thier will? Porno is evil, and if that was determined by the society and not god, then the society would not look at porno. But of course, the society DOES look at porno, and a lot of it too. The society calls it evil, but they didn't determine it, because what man deems right would be the act of man's will, and evil would be anything that opposes it.
By what your presuming, "right" would be what everyone wants, and "wrong" would be what everyone hates, but the way you would have it, it wouldn't make sense! Thousands of people LOVE to look at porno, but they know its wrong. Why would they defy their own will if their will was what's "right"? Good and Evil was determined by God, not society's will. Don't mix interpretaion of good and evil with
determination of good and evil.
Wow, this is gonna bring up an arguement (mostly bcuz what I just said is kinda hard to explain).
Also, I am aware that several temples in the ancient times preached the whole money thing, and some churches still do. I said it was funny! Jesus forced several people out of the temple with a whip of chords bcuz they were giving money "to be saved and forgiven" Doesn't that strike you as the least bit humorous?
Edited by the Author.
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
JP: I forgot to mention, we know dinosaurs probably existed. We have their freaking bones! We DON'T have more than words that your arguement is true. Ugh, I need to type less...
Edit: Is it me, or do me and JP take up more than %50 of this forum?
Edited by the Author.
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
I think its just you, Phillipe. Much more people are simply reading rather that spurting out the first thing that comes to their head.
If this were a true debate than JP wouldve won ages ago, probably on spelling and grammar alone.
But ofcourse its not a true debate.
"They know that the life of Jesus existed, they used carbon-dating on the various records," Do you even know what carbon dating is? You cannot prove the existance of an individual from 'records', by which I believe you are referring to evidence. Carbon dating is used to find a rough, not prefect, date on on a piece of evidence which was once living. Perhaps you meant DNA testing, in which case there would still need to be a sample of Jesus DNA to compare to.
"Really? Is it determined by your social society? If it were determined my the will of the whole society, then why would the whole society consistantly defeat thier will? Porno is evil, and if that was determined by the society and not god, then the society would not look at porno. But of course, the society DOES look at porno, and a lot of it too. The society calls it evil, but they didn't determine it, because what man deems right would be the act of man's will, and evil would be anything that opposes it." I think you've mis-interpretted what RapidFlash means. Lets use the example of a tribe which is isolated from every other society, religious or otherwise. God hasnt told them whats right or wrong, theyve decided themselves, and that 'moral' has been passed down to their children.
Id also like to say, this is also directed at Muz, that just because someone is an atheist doesnt mean theyre morally wrong, it simply means they dont need a bunch of pissy make believe to determine whats the right or wrong thing to do in a situation, which I might add, is usually determined by their society. Oh, and perhaps when you get older you'll appreiciate, as you say,'porno.'
Ill stop picking on you for now, Phillipe, but I will come back to you.
"To me, I think life is a test... God gives us things little by little and you have to go with it. Thats why life isn't fair...
Whats at the end of the universe?
Whats the reason for living? "
There is no reason for living, we just live for a bit, than die. Its what happens inbetween whats important...well not that important, but its the only thing that should be important to you. As long as you can have fun in a way which you're morally happy with. End of the universe? Dont know, probably nothing at all, but I doubt think we'll be around to see it, so who cares.
"For those of you choosing between Atheism or Christianity (or at least looking for good points to bring up), there is a book by C.S. Lewis I believe that you should read. Someone say the name for me, i forget what it's called . You might know what I'm talking about anyways." You must be talking about 'The Chronicles of Narnia'? But I dont see what point it makes towards influencing a religious or athiest life. I do know that Lewis was an anthiest turned christian, but thats his choice. A fairytale (and no matter how didactic or religiously connotational the TCON books were theyre still a fairytale) is not likely to raise much questioning of ones religion, opposed to something like the bible. It DOES however achieve well in teaching morals to children in a way that doest ask them to believe that these things actually happened, which I like as a non-religious person.
"JP: I forgot to mention, we know dinosaurs probably existed. We have their freaking bones! We DON'T have more than words that your arguement is true." Dinosaurs PROBABLY EXISTED? We sure have a lot more evidence they did than that God does. 'Freaking bones' and other physical remains or evidence are much more reliable than any other source. Written evidence will always be bias, and religion would not have survived without it. "We DON'T have more than words that your arguement is true."- we dont have more than spoken word that anything religious is true. It may be possible to prove a guy named Jesus existed, and that he got nailed to a post for saying how good it would be to be nice to people for a change (I hope no-one minds me quoting Douglas Adams), we may even be able to prove that all those geographical events, like earthquakes and stuff happened, but none of these prove that Jesus was supernatural and could do physically impossible things. There is however prove that the 'virgin mary' could not get pregnant whilst still keeping her virgin status, thats simple medical stuff. And we know that its impossible to walk over water, and that...sorry I havent actually read much of the make believe stories, so I cant recall many of the other supernatural things Jesus did. If we're willing to believe in him, than why not superman? Or dinosaurs for christs sake?...bit of irony there in my choice of profanity.
Im done now, and Im sorry to go on a bit, you can probably tell by the first bit I was planning on keeping this short and precise, I guess I just got carried away. This is purely my believes. I have not written it in a friendly way thats likely to convert anyone, because I couldnt really careless. Just thought my opinion was a valid one, and if nothing else something for you to read and know understand what I and a lot of other people believe in, or dont believe in for that matter.
EDIT: Oh and sorry, I didnt set out to attack anyones beliefs, it just sort of happened.
Edited by the Author.
'oh yeah? he's thrown a kettle over a pub, what have you done?'
"Really? Is it determined by your social society? If it were determined my the will of the whole society, then why would the whole society consistantly defeat thier will? Porno is evil, and if that was determined by the society and not god, then the society would not look at porno. But of course, the society DOES look at porno, and a lot of it too. The society calls it evil, but they didn't determine it, because what man deems right would be the act of man's will, and evil would be anything that opposes it."
By what your presuming, "right" would be what everyone wants, and "wrong" would be what everyone hates, but the way you would have it, it wouldn't make sense! Thousands of people LOVE to look at porno, but they know its wrong. Why would they defy their own will if their will was what's "right"? Good and Evil was determined by God, not society's will. Don't mix interpretaion of good and evil with determination of good and evil. "
Perhaps I should've added more to my explanation. Society isn't just what you or anyone else wants it to be. It's creation is more invisible than that. Plus, what about places where they don't believe in God? And what about different religions that have different beliefs in good and evil? And I hate to do this, but I'm going to have to: The Nazis thought it was okay to kill Jews. To them, they weren't doing "evil". Same with the Crusaders. However, God/Jesus considered killing to be "evil". So God doesn't decide what good and evil is.
EDIT: I didn't see istvan's post. He basically said it the best.
Istvan: When i said "dinosaures probably existed", that would be the equivelint of "I am agreeing with you JP, dinoaurs existed". I don't pay very much attention to slight exagerations, as well do many people when they talk about stuff. Sorry if you misinterpreted, but thats what i meant.
I wasn't talking about the Chronicles of Narnia. Duh. Maybe it was J. R. Tolkein who wrote it? Ugh, I'm not sure. The book was written while the guy was trying to disprove christianity, only to realize how true it is, yackity yack yack, whatever. I'll try and find the name. I think it was the writer of LOTR (Short for the Lord of the Rings, for those of you who wouldn't know).
As for typing and grammatical errors, you forgot a space in "But ofcourse its not a true debate." I'm not being maniacly evil, just pointing out something I thought was funny. Of course, i misspell stuff all of the time, but that just had good placement on your part.
The lesson for today is: Lessons of the day are usually stupid and pointless, so don't listen to them.
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
wow... i havent been looking at the DC for a while, and look how far this string has gotten. Tisk tisk, never leave a religious forum dormant, it makes you look like a coward
Games currently in "the works":
Moonrise
My Fantasy (dieing dream)
Shadowed Sunset (this one will be cool)
Dragon Riders (Newer, better animated, cooler, and less gradient version!)
....................
www.phil-con.com baby!
Advertisement
Post Reply
Edited by the Author.
What your saying could be true but so could the bible. It's hard to verify what happened long ago, because the documents get distorted by people over time.
i really don't reccomend saying bad things about things you don't know anything about, once you find out information, then you can combat it.
