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0ko



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18th September, 2009 at 17:47:57 -


Originally Posted by OldManClayton
I can see you've all had a healthy helping of haterade. I'd jump in, but I've learned there is really no point in arguing about these things here, of all places. It just stirs up negativity between members.

These threads are always bad news, and never ever accomplish anything.



They accomplished something!..Some of the longest replies in history?

A healthy debate can't hurt every now and then?
But... maybe it's because you never jump into the debates that everybody likes you so much?!

 
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OMC

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18th September, 2009 at 17:58:14 -

This is actually probably the first big debate that has happened since I've been here that I haven't participated in. You all can have fun, it just seems like useless worry to me... I don't think anyone is going to change their fundamental beliefs here. But I should just stay out of it! I forget sometimes that some people like to debate, whereas I just feel kind of sick. :S

 

  		
  		

UrbanMonk

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18th September, 2009 at 19:37:00 -

No one will change their fundamental beliefs over this. I know that, but as you said, it's fun for some people!

I know no one here hates anyone. (even if they think they do )
So feel free to disagree with me OMC, I won't feel like you hate me, that's just silly!

Also


Originally Posted by Dr. James
And just a sidenote. I've been hearing a lot of people saying that access to healthcare is not a "God given" right. Yet they believe it is their right to own guns. Go figure.



NO one said that access to healthcare is not a God given right.

If the government started trying to pass a bill that would give everyone free guns with their taxes I'd oppose that too!


Originally Posted by Dr. James
If you aren't deemed as worthy as another to receive healthcare then you won't receive it as soon as another under one plan. Because every other plan, government or otherwise, does not just disappear because the government starts offering healthcare.



IF this said bill was passed then the private insurers would all dry up because the government would be able to undercut all the private insurers prices. Then they could make up for their loses by printing more money which will lead to increased inflation.

Inflation hurts the poor more than it hurts the rich even though both parties are hurt.
And in the end the government would own a monopoly on healthcare, so all those things I mentioned would apply everywhere.

So don't get mad at all the "big corporations," get mad at the government, they are the ones stealing your money!

 
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Dr. James MD

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18th September, 2009 at 20:27:04 -


Originally Posted by UrbanMonk


Originally Posted by Dr. James
If you aren't deemed as worthy as another to receive healthcare then you won't receive it as soon as another under one plan. Because every other plan, government or otherwise, does not just disappear because the government starts offering healthcare.



IF this said bill was passed then the private insurers would all dry up because the government would be able to undercut all the private insurers prices. Then they could make up for their loses by printing more money which will lead to increased inflation.

Inflation hurts the poor more than it hurts the rich even though both parties are hurt.
And in the end the government would own a monopoly on healthcare, so all those things I mentioned would apply everywhere.

So don't get mad at all the "big corporations," get mad at the government, they are the ones stealing your money!



So why hasn't that happened in the UK or any other country with UHC? We have major health insurers (BUPA) and plenty of smaller ones. We have a completely free option yet people opt to pay if you want cosmetic or quicker treatment. Infact if you're on the NHS and require treatment but they can't provide it - you get free private care instead. How is that not the greatest example of a "win win situation" ever?
Printing more money? Hah. Come on now. You have no idea of the impact that would have on the economy.

I don't think you know how this works; VAT and TAX are there so the money goes back to the government and subsidise all the things you like. Imagine if there was no tax and you got 100% of your pay cheque. Then the roads get buggered up - who pays to fix that? Or paying for a basic level of education? That kind of system doesn't work which is why we pay a portion of our income to the govenernment to make our lives easier and better. They're not stealing, (I can only speak for the UK here) but people in government aren't making all that much money as their own income. They're only getting paid as much as a Tesco manager. Most earn less than plain old NHS doctors! The overwhelming bulk of what we pay out goes on to making our country work.

And you may not be saying it but one of the arguments I keep hearing against UHC is that healthcare is not a right. Which is ludicrous.

 
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UrbanMonk

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18th September, 2009 at 21:17:03 -


Originally Posted by Dr. James
And you may not be saying it but one of the arguments I keep hearing against UHC is that healthcare is not a right. Which is ludicrous.



I'd like to know who's saying that. At least some proof.
I've heard it before too, but only from lib's who say that people are saying that.
If I didn't think healthcare was a right I wouldn't want any healthcare at all, private, public or otherwise.


Originally Posted by Dr. James
We have major health insurers (BUPA) and plenty of smaller ones. We have a completely free option yet people opt to pay if you want cosmetic or quicker treatment. Infact if you're on the NHS and require treatment but they can't provide it - you get free private care instead.



Can you give me more information on this. What private treatment do you get? When was BUPA formed? Is there laws against the government competing with free trade over there?


Originally Posted by Dr. James
I don't think you know how this works; VAT and TAX are there so the money goes back to the government and subsidise all the things you like. Imagine if there was no tax and you got 100% of your pay cheque. Then the roads get buggered up - who pays to fix that? Or paying for a basic level of education? That kind of system doesn't work which is why we pay a portion of our income to the govenernment to make our lives easier and better. They're not stealing, (I can only speak for the UK here) but people in government aren't making all that much money as their own income. They're only getting paid as much as a Tesco manager. Most earn less than plain old NHS doctors! The overwhelming bulk of what we pay out goes on to making our country work.



I know what TAX was intended for, and yes part of our TAX dollars do go to the reconstruction of roads and such, but if I received 100% of my pay check than to make up for the loss in income tax, sales tax would go up. That's called the fair tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax ) which I would much prefer. I would prefer this system over income tax because then illegals would have to pay taxes too.

 
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Eternal Man [EE]

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18th September, 2009 at 21:32:12 -

Ha ha! This is truly a good example of how different people are depending on what you are used to, I couldn't dream of a person (except a spoiled upper-class person) actually complaining about giving every person -rich or poor- a right to healthcare, especially when it's actually do-able!

I've always found the American system ruthless, horrific and the epitome of greed and egoism.

I live in Sweden, and I'd loathe our government if they would deny a fellow human being treatment just because s-/he was poor or seeking asylum.

//EE

 
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Dr. James MD

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18th September, 2009 at 22:56:52 -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bupa
It predates the NHS by a year. Established 1947 and still, even though theres a free option, making a profit. I don't know of any drafted laws against them or the governments healthcare option but if you pay you get quicker treatment, isolated room, access to cosmetic procedures (you can buy these outside of having insurance but they do cost more) . You pay for a better service there's no denying that. But as I keep saying if you don't want to pay you still have access to operations, long term healthcare, disability aid. The populace here sees the benefits so there is no need for competition laws. There is no monopoly.

There's also the ING, AXA, Scottish Widows (they're all linked on the bottom of that page) who also provide private healthcare. But in the UK Bupa are the largest providers of such.

I've always found the American system ruthless, horrific and the epitome of greed and egoism.
Bingo.

One also has to wonder if any of those protesters were bused in their insurance companies.

 
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KetchupMaster!



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19th September, 2009 at 04:55:50 -

The system we have today in the US is no doubt highly flawed...but why? You have to look at the simple economics of the situation. The government caused the problems in the 70s when they created the system of HMOs and corporate medicine that we have today. This caused health care costs to spiral out of control by removing control over the money going into health care from consumers. This gave people no incentive to look at costs when choosing healthcare so the costs went up and are still going up. If the government gets more involved, prices will increase even more and quality will decrease more. The healthcare system that we have is NOT the result of capitalism, it is the result of government policy.

The way to fix it is to get the government out of the business of meddling in healthcare, which was far more affordable and accessible before the government got involved. If you read about what healthcare was like before the government got involved, the united states had the healthcare system that was the envy of the world. We had the finest doctors and hospitals, and thousands of privately funded charities provided health services to the poor. There were emergency rooms where no one was turned away for lack of funds. People had insurance policies for serious illness but paid cash for routine visits to the doctor. It made sense and gave doctors every incentive to keep their prices low and their quality of care high. This is the most humanitarian way to deliver healthcare in a free society.

Healthcare is so obviously not a right. America was founded on the ideas of Natural Rights...that every individual has a right to their life, liberty, and property and they gain these rights solely as a virtue of their humanity, not because the government gives them those rights. These rights cannot be taken away unless you are violating someone elses rights. So to say that healthcare is a right is to say that you have a right to other people's wealth (their property), which is so obviously not true.

Besides all of those reasons, the US constitution gives the US federal government a limited set of enumerated powers and healthcare control is not one of them. Any member of congress who votes for the healthcare bill in america is violating their solemn oath to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution of the United States of America.

Edited by KetchupMaster!

 
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Yami



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19th September, 2009 at 08:03:16 -

And you may not be saying it but one of the arguments I keep hearing against UHC is that healthcare is not a right. Which is ludicrous.

Healthcare is so obviously not a right. America was founded on the ideas of Natural Rights...that every individual has a right to their life, liberty, and property and they gain these rights solely as a virtue of their humanity, not because the government gives them those rights. These rights cannot be taken away unless you are violating someone elses rights. So to say that healthcare is a right is to say that you have a right to other people's wealth (their property), which is so obviously not true.

Besides all of those reasons, the US constitution gives the US federal government a limited set of enumerated powers and healthcare control is not one of them. Any member of congress who votes for the healthcare bill in america is violating their solemn oath to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution of the United States of America.


So who else thinks James just got pwned? You're starting to sound like those congressmen who say that BS about the Consitution being a living document.

 
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Ricky

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19th September, 2009 at 09:34:29 -

" You're starting to sound like those congressmen who say that BS about the Consitution being a living document. "

The thing about those people is, they are completely ignoring the fact that if the constitution needs an update, WE CAN AMEND IT. So their is no need for this living breathing document nonsense.

 
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OMC

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19th September, 2009 at 14:15:23 -

I agree with KetchupMaster.

I'm reaaally trying hard not to post anything more than that.

 

  		
  		

Dr. James MD

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19th September, 2009 at 14:49:07 -

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32882064/ns/health-health_care/
45,000 deaths a year because people can't afford health insurance.

Anyone care to justify that?

 
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markno2



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19th September, 2009 at 17:46:06 -

Everyone deserves free health care. All Americans are greedy and evil, all they do is hate each other. America is sliding backwards and becoming a third world country.

 
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OMC

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19th September, 2009 at 18:01:14 -

Just like all Nigerians are scammers or all British people wear monocles?

 

  		
  		

Ski

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Candy Cane
19th September, 2009 at 18:04:46 -

I think you meant English British would include Scots, Irish and Welsh, and they certainly do not wear monocles

 
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