On TV everywhere it was : I voted for change.
Now there's 1.5 million American's in Washington absolutely terrified of change.
Along with the wacko's who think that anybody who isn't christian (or white) shouldn't be president.
There were African Americans at Washington as well as "white" people.
It has nothing to do with ethnicity it has to do with Obama's policies and his support of Cap and Trade.
Also the Health Care Reform. We have no money for this, and if the money runs out then our health care will be "rationed." That and "End of Life Counseling" are what people have a problem with.
I saw on the Canadian news covering the protest people saying that they did not want someone who wasn't christian running their governement.
the ("or white") was merely a suggestion for SOME (small amount perhaps) of the people there.
From my understanding, Cap and trade is meant to help clean energy compete with our current forms of energy, by making the other forms expensive, and subsidizing the clean ones. Not a bad idea really. The only problem is, while we transition from coal/oil to clean sources the costs will be put on the everyday consumer (electric companys will raise there prices in order to pay their fees). Thus making our economic situation even worse. The pain would go away overtime, but it would still be a painful transition. Also, we have a lot of jobs in the coal industry and that would really hurt them.
Originally Posted by 0ko ...the ("or white") was merely a suggestion for SOME (small amount perhaps) of the people there.
Oh ok, well it's not true. They don't care whether Obama is African American or Caucasian. It has nothing to do with his race.
Originally Posted by Jon Lambert . The problem with Cap and Trade is...
2. Obama's policies are...
3. The U.S. has money for...
4. "End of Life Counseling" is...
5. Health care will have to be rationed because...
6. "Change" is a code word for Communism because...
Ricky Garces answered the first one. Really it almost seems like Obama is purposly tring to ruin the US. It's completely stupid to raise prices on gas especially since nothing is developed enough to replace it.
Obama told the CEO of GM to step down. -Government controlling a private business.
Trying to pass the Kennedy Bill which will require all employers to offer health care to employees or pay a penalty. -This would result in major loss of jobs because employers would have to lay off some employees to be able to pay for others.
The new health care bill has something called "End of Life Counseling" which is basically this. If a person decided to be inadequate to live, instead of getting health care they will be taken to a counselor instead who "prepares them for death."
Also they want to store all the medical records in a giant database. More government control means less freedom! yay! Read it in the bill here: http://www.eagleforum.org/links/pdf/HouseDemHealth.pdf#page=58
Oh yeah, and this isn't optional. If anything is requested of you about you for your medical record you MUST give them the information.
I'll answer the other questions later.
Oh yeah, and "change," when Obama says it at least, is another word for communism because that's exactly what he's doing! You can't argue with the facts.
My health insurance costs over 10% of my income. People in France pay 10% more in taxes than we pay in America and get free health care (with no deductibles or co-insurance). They also get free college. Conservatives are always railing against socialism, but a little socialism might be just what we need.
Furthermore, we'd have a lot more money to spend on social programs and stuff that actually benefits Americans if we weren't too busy fighting an illegal and unjustified war in Iraq.
As for the GM situation - GM asked for bailout money from the government, effectively making the American tax-payer a shareholder. The second GM accepted optional bailout funds, they ceased to be a privately held company.
As for cap and trade, it's about time we started giving a shit about the environment. A little tax hike on existing energy sources might just encourage the development of less damaging alternatives.
well Smith, I guess the first two you explained were reasonable, but...
"As for cap and trade, it's about time we started giving a shit about the environment. A little tax hike on existing energy sources might just encourage the development of less damaging alternatives."
Oh yeah! economy's great! let's go buy us some nice expensive fuel efficient cars!
Like, I recycle and all that, but carbon taxes don't help IMO.
I hardly believe that your health insurance is over 10% of your income. Where do you work, McDonald's?
Healthcare WILL NOT be free, you will pay for it with a hike in taxes and massive invasion of privacy. Oh yeah and if the "health council" (aka Death Panel) doesn't believe you deserve treatment for your illness you won't receive it. If it costs less to let you die then that's what they'll do. But hey don't take it from me, check the bill out for yourself!
You are right about the war, I didn't like what Bush did either, but I don't see Obama bringing the troops home do you?
GM shouldn't have even been offered the bailout money in the first place.
I'm all for protecting the environment and reducing carbon emissions, but raising taxes on gas is just plain stupid! The only thing that will do is cause residents to use less gas, but the large shipping companies will simply raise their prices instead of getting rid of all their old trucks and buying new ones. Therefore we the people will pay more for everything: Food, water, gas, heating, construction, electricity, ect.
If you think 10-15% for healthcare is bad now just wait until you are paying all these new taxes!
When it all boils down Kirby, you just want a free ride. You don't want to work hard and earn a good life. You want others to pay your way. If all the hard working Americans quit paying income taxes most liberals/socialists would starve.
I hardly believe that your health insurance is over 10% of your income. Where do you work, McDonald's?
Healthcare WILL NOT be free, you will pay for it with a hike in taxes and massive invasion of privacy. Oh yeah and if the "health council" (aka Death Panel) doesn't believe you deserve treatment for your illness you won't receive it. If it costs less to let you die then that's what they'll do. But hey don't take it from me, check the bill out for yourself!
You are right about the war, I didn't like what Bush did either, but I don't see Obama bringing the troops home do you?
GM shouldn't have even been offered the bailout money in the first place.
I'm all for protecting the environment and reducing carbon emissions, but raising taxes on gas is just plain stupid! The only thing that will do is cause residents to use less gas, but the large shipping companies will simply raise their prices instead of getting rid of all their old trucks and buying new ones. Therefore we the people will pay more for everything: Food, water, gas, heating, construction, electricity, ect.
If you think 10-15% for healthcare is bad now just wait until you are paying all these new taxes!
When it all boils down Kirby, you just want a free ride. You don't want to work hard and earn a good life. You want others to pay your way. If all the hard working Americans quit paying income taxes most liberals/socialists would starve.
I find your post rather confusing. I currently live in Norway but originates from Sweden, so I've lived in two "socialist" countries where as in one of them has the highest taxes in the WORLD. You're actually implying that treatment after tax payed health care will be worse? Dude, Norway HAS THE BEST HOSPITAL TREATMENT IN THE WORLD.
Sooooo... You're dead wrong. Everything here is so remarkably fairytale like you have NO IDEA. Sure there are poor and rich, there are better hospitals and crappy ones -- but you go to the same doctor as the richest kid in town and get the same treatment. EVERYBODY IS TREATED WITH RESPECT AND EMPATHY, REGARDLESS GENDER, RACE OR STATUS / WEALTH.
No one gets a free ride here -- in fact, there are no 'American Dreamy' type get-rich-fast opportunities, besides hazard gaming. In a world where the poorer gets poorer and the richer gets richer, I don't understand how you guys CAN'T AFFORD not to get the new health care plan.
You're welcome to give me theories, but I've lived 24 years under "Socialist" red government which is voted by fair democratic election (we don't have two parties, we have many and everybody has a fighting chance to earn mandates).
I have a Bachelor in Computer Graphics at one of the top 3 Universities in Sweden. I recieved around 500$ monthly to do so. No tuition, no scholarship. Sweden payed me to study -- now that's something you can't argue aginst. I'm paying back to society by PAYING TAXES so other people might enjoy the same perks as I've had in University.
I'm sorry but your healthcare is not the best in the world. You've been told that by your media and since you've never experienced American hospitals you believe it.
My aunt is a missionary to Guiana and they also think they have the best hospital treatment in the world. Don't kid yourself, your not alone in your deception.
I don't want all our hospital's ran by the government. My dad is a commander in the US coast guard and I've been to government run hospitals. They tried to force my mother to take birth control pills. They treat you like a number not a person.
All of our private hospitals treat you the same regardless of gender, race or status/wealth as well. They don't care how much money you have. They are just there to treat you. So that argument is impertinent.
The poor only get poorer because they don't want to work. The one's that can't work get a check from the government already, food stamps, free education, ect.
We have far more than two parties, the dem's and rep's are the only ones that are publicized.
EDIT: Oh yeah something else I forgot to mention, Norway is a whole lot smaller than the US by a long shot. Your population is about that of Massachusetts, so it can hardly be an example.
Like I said in my Edit Norway is a whole lot smaller than the US by a long shot. Your population is about that of Massachusetts, so it can hardly be an example.
Actually about 4/6 of Massachusetts.
Also Norways birth rate is very low. The healthcare system doesn't have to pay for nearly as much as we do. Before you compare yourself to us think on these things.
Well.. If it is actually not comaprable because we're a small clumb of nations, then I guess I do not know.. I can only speak of my own personal experience that it can be a good thing. That looking out for eachother, even the poorest and weakest can be a fullfiling thing. Having empathy towards eachother and everybody working with the same means to a better and more solidary nation is in my head only a good thing.
Alright, I did a little more research into your healthcare, and it seems you are right about it.
Also remember your healthcare system is not obamacare, and it would only work for your country. Remember the USA is a melting pot of many different ethnicity's. And like I said hardly any population growth.
Also concerning your comment about the US no longer being blessed by God. You are absolutely right. America has turned their back on God. We were blessed in the past because we were a predominantly Christan nation.
The one's in control of such a system will always end up being the richest because of human nature. After they are rich then they want control. You'll notice whenever anyone is very rich their next step is to get into politics.
And speaking of government corruption has anyone seen the latest dirt on ACORN, the organization that was supposed to receive something to the number of 5.2 million dollars of bailout money? Well Obama's pet group just got exposed.
Two undercover young reporters took these videos in ACORN offices, the census bureau has broke ties to ACORN and a bill has been passed that won't allow government money to be given to ACORN. Also they are being investigated. Obama used to work for these people.
just because a predominant sector of a country believes in god, it doesnt mean it is blessed by him, or even if he exists. you've got a twisted rhetoric there, and you've got no reason to defend your argument so aggresively... no point in convincing anyone. if you care to argue against this, i'll answer "i agree with you entirely" beforehand.
I know a lot of people for Canada. Never talked about their healthcare to them though.
I wonder.
Besides all of the comparisons to Canada though, and just reading the bill OUR president is trying to pass should give you enough information to formulate an opinion on it.
UrbanMonk, I'm replying against my better judgment, because I know you're probably set in your opinions. But I like to argue, so here goes:
I'm married and own a home. No kids yet. I'm 22 years old and still a full-time student, and work 40 hours a week as an assistant manager at a 17-screen movie theater. Right now I'm making $10.50 an hour. My wife also works 30 hours a week at a major retailer making $7.50 an hour and does about 10 hours of babysitting on the side for a friend and her brother respectively.
Our Combined Income: (40 hours x 52 weeks x $10.50) + (30 hours x 52 weeks x $7.50) + $60 a week x 52 weeks = $36,660 (I live in the mid-west, so this isn't that bad)
Our health and dental insurance: $284 a month x 12 months = $3408 (my math was a little off, but it's 9.2% of our before-tax income). Add to that co-pays, and $1000 deductible each if we get sick, and it's getting expensive.
As for paying more in taxes, I'd be glad to if it meant everyone had access to health insurance equivalent to what I'm already paying for. We're healthy, don't smoke, and aren't fat. Imagine how much worse it is for others to get good insurance.
As for this talk of death panels, I suggest you read the bill. Actually read the pages that talk about the end-of-life counseling. There is ABSOLUTELY NO LANGUAGE that states medical treatment will be given only to those in good health. If I'm wrong, then give me a quote, page number, and a link to the bill so I can read it. I know you haven't.
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You're correct. Obama isn't pulling the troops out fast enough. I certainly don't worship the man just because I agree with most of his politics. The only war we've had any business fighting since World War 2 is the one we're fighting right now in Afghanistan. No country should attack unless in retaliation to attack. Period. Diplomacy should be the only tactic used to police the world. We have far too many problems domestically to be worrying about other countries.
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Regarding GM receiving bailout money. AGREED, BUT they accepted it, so nobody has any right to bitch about how big scary socialist government wants to see it spent.
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Regarding your stance on cap-and-trade: There was a lot of interest being generated in developing alternative fuel sources when gas was $4.00+ a gallon. Miraculously, the oil companies dropped the prices once they saw it coming, and now the demand for alts has dropped off. Maybe the same demand would be generated thanks to cap-and-trade tax. If nothing else, it would help spur conservation, which is a good thing since the planet's resources are depleting at an alarming rate.
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You talk about health care being bad, but new taxes being worse. This is where we have a fundamental difference in philosophy. I would gladly pay double what I currently do in taxes if it meant a better life for not only myself, but all other citizens of our country. I would love to see public health care. I would love to see free or further subsidized college-education and better public schools. I would love to see our infrastructure improved and rebuilt. I would love to see public-access internet (wastes less paper if all business can be conducted online, and does wonders for access to information and collaboration). All of these things benefit the greater good. An educated and connected populace is essential to a thriving society.
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I certainly am not looking for a free ride. I'm looking for a shared ride that is twice as good as any that we're currently on. I'm going to school so that I can do well not only for myself but also for anyone that benefits from my success. Just because one is successful doesn't mean they must also be selfish. By each of his ability to each of his need, or something like that.
--- TO ADDRESS SOME OF YOUR OTHER POSTS AFTER THE ONE DIRECTED AT ME ---
"The poor only get poorer because they don't want to work." :
Really? I take it you didn't notice the widening gap between the salaries of CEO's and the salaries of workers? I take it you also didn't notice that we're still behind the curve when it comes to minimum wage versus inflation and rising cost-of-living?
I agree that those who aren't willing to work don't deserve a penny. But I also agree with the notion that no American that works 40 hours a week should live in poverty. I read a study that showed that people living in New Orleans shortly after Katrina would have to work 130 HOURS A WEEK in order to afford a 2-bedroom rental unit and have an acceptable standard of living.
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"We have far more than two parties" - Technically, yes. But it hardly counts if none of the others can get into power, and at best play spoiler. Although we might have three soon if the Goldwater republicans finally figure out that the Christian-extremist-neo-con right is running the party and their once-noble-if-ultimately-flawed ideals into the ground.
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"Also concerning your comment about the US no longer being blessed by God. You are absolutely right. America has turned their back on God. We were blessed in the past because we were a predominantly Christan nation." :
There is no God. The only people who believe are either too stupid to understand science that completely undermine their fairy-tale beliefs, or are too brainwashed with dogma and fear to escape the church's teachings.
America is still made up of mostly Christian citizens (about 80%). That said, it has NEVER BEEN A CHRISTIAN NATION. The 1st amendment to the constitution clearly states that no law can establish a religion of any kind. (Which we already trample on by printing 'in god we trust' on our money and having the words 'one nation under god' in our constitution).
The Christian-right would have you believe that without God the country will spiral into chaos and sodomy. It's a crock. I'm an atheist (in case you couldn't tell), and I feel like I'm a pretty ethical, upstanding person that looks out for the better good of mankind. It doesn't take an invisible man in the sky to elicit good behavior.
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I don't even want to get into it about ACORN. It's just one of many attempts by radicals within the republican party to delegitimatize Obama's presidency. It holds about as much credence as the birthers (read: none).
ACORN is a very relevant investigation for these resons:
You do realize that Obama wanted to give them 5.2 million dollars of the bailout money don't you? That's the reason people were upset about it. It has nothing to do with people trying to demoralize Obama. Some are using that against Obama because he used to work for them as their lawyer, and he also got a lot of money from them to fund his campaign.
And regarding your comment about God, and being atheist. I'm friends with many "atheists," I put it in quotes because most are not really atheists, they are actually agnostic. You can't make the statement that there is no God because it is impossible to prove a universal negative. Science tells us this. I'll respect a man who says they don't know if there is a God. That being said most atheists are good people, at least the one's I know, but there are people that don't care one way or another about others, and any form of religion that has good morals keeps them in check. ALSO if there was a Christian/"Insert any other religion here" running for president and a atheist running against him/her has better ideas I'm of course going to vote the one with better ideas!
Thanks for your well thought out reply, I'll respond to the rest of it later.
Originally Posted by CGmonkey I have a Bachelor in Computer Graphics at one of the top 3 Universities in Sweden. I recieved around 500$ monthly to do so. No tuition, no scholarship. Sweden payed me to study -- now that's something you can't argue aginst. I'm paying back to society by PAYING TAXES so other people might enjoy the same perks as I've had in University.
I didn't see this edit till today CGmonkey! I also have my tuition completely paid for! Books, Room, Food, ect. The school itself is paying for it. I could've went to many other colleges in the area as well because they all offered me scholarships! At the end of the semester I can sell the books they bought me back to them and get about 250$
That being said how's the immigration laws in Norway. If Obama screws us up I want somewhere to move to.
EDIT: For anyone wondering I'm not a Republican. I'm independent because I vote for whoever has the best ideas. I didn't like McCain either.
While it's true that it is impossible to prove a universal negative, the burden of proof is one the one claiming that something unprovable exists. It's like me walking up to you and saying "I have an invisible pet pig and it can fly!" and then telling you that you're wrong because you can't prove that my flying pig doesn't exist, and insisting that I'm right without being able to provide any empirical evidence to support my claim. Sure, I can't say with 100% certainty that there isn't a god, but there is certainly no evidence to support his existence, and there is a lot of scientific theory to contradict the Bible. Not to mention the internal inconsistencies within the text itself.
Anyway, I look forward to the rest of your reply. I'm busy most of the day, but I'll try to respond in a timely manner once you post it.
I pretty much agree with everything UrbanMonk has said so far and would rather have a smaller government than a bigger one. We can't use the same type of thinking that has got us into this mess to get us out. So throwing money at the situation is not solving anything, but rather delaying the inevitable. I believe that if I earned my money then I should be able to have a say on where it goes and quite frankly giving it to the lower class does nothing, but make the people dependent on the government to bail them out and reinforce the idea that they can continue the same path, not work, and get hand outs. A good example is welfare. I believe the people who do pay their taxes, the hard working middle class, should be rewarded and get some of their money back instead of it being sent off to the people who do not work or pay their taxes.
Government spending needs to be cut back by A LOT. When you are in debt you do not want to make it worse and keep digging yourself in where you can not pay it off. You cut back and if anything stop the bleeding. The unemployment rate was said to reach 8% percent if the stimulus package wasn't passed. It then was passed and based on August the unemployment rate is now at 9.7%. Now I would say that it is not working, but to give the benifit of doubt to those who believe otherwise I will not make a final judgement until the end of the year. With that said, most Americans do not want anymore of the money put into the system, because it is only creating inflation which can be seen by the worth of the dollar decreasing.
As far as a creating more competition for healthcare, the only idea that I have heard and seen as a good idea is having the option to buy healthcare across state borders which can not be done right now. Which means more competition with no need for a government runned healthcare plan, which is always a good thing because anytime the government is involved they seem to mess something up AND it means no raising of taxes in order for the system to be run. Which would have to be done in order for Obamacare to work, and even so, we do not have the money for that and it is possible that it could be the very thing that pushes the country into bankruptcy.
With that said, I believe that the country should be run by the people with the government's involvement being as little as possible. I am not a child nor do I need the government to baby my every need. If you do what you are suppose to do at work and in school, anything is possible and I truly believe that. People who say otherwise also tend to play the main role behind their unfortunate circumstances; however at that point they are in too deep to see the source of their problems being in the mirror.
I haven't really followed much of this as I'm not American - but isn't what he is trying to do similar to the health care system here in the UK? As far as I'm aware, children are made to have vaccinations here too. I don't understand what is so wrong with that?
People seem to be trying to come up with any excuses just because they don't want such a big change - you do have enough money, and it will help a hell of a lot of people get the health care they need. Just watch this video and you'll see that the majority of the people protesting don't even know what they're protesting about or why they're doing it.
Also I'm one of those folks who think vaccinations can be bad for children.
(I mean like routine ones, like if there's a plague going around then sure, everybody should get vaccinated.)
yeah I can't spell. I don't think mandatory vaccines would be all that bad. Would be nice to go to school and not be worried about someone else making me sick.
Lots of people/companies/governments have debt - it doesn't mean they have no money.
Also in the UK we just get vaccines for things that spread easily in schools or whatever - you don't get forced to have a vaccine for everything.
Originally Posted by UrbanMonk The poor only get poorer because they don't want to work.
So the reason all those American people who have been laid off and are poor is because they're lazy? How about the fact capitalism exploits the worker and lays him/her off to save on cost effect... It's come to a point where 'change' will have to be practically forced. I say this in the sense that it's the rich companies that pretty much control the world and it's the rich companies that are causing all sorts of problems, particularly that of the environment. Moreover, it's the rich companies that don't give a DAMN about the populace of the world they rely so heavily on. I'm with Kirby Smith on this one.
This century's going to show something big happen; without change the world will certainly take a turn for the worse. By 2030 (although it's been heavily speculated--and in some cases proven--to be even earlier than that!) it is believed that the abundance of fossil fuels will have peaked. In other words, we will have used up over 50% of the worlds fossil fuels. Not only is it terrible for the environment, but the way fossil fuels have been used can easily be considered to be a HUGE waste of such a valuable finite resource. There ARE alternative ways, many of them in fact, of which save us in wasting gas and oils high energy return for other endeavors. Regardless, gas prices will be rising within the next few years. We need to APPLY THE PRESSURE to look for alternative resources and expenditure methods since, as we have seen, rich companies do not particularly support any type of change that will take away from their precious profit. Too many people think short term, you've gotta think long term man. LONG TERM.
Also, I believe your term of communism needs to be rethought out. There is a difference between it's theory and principles rather than the shit examples history has shown us so far or the warped statements people spew out in fear.
First I want to apologize to Kirby for my incorrect judgment of him.
It was wrong of me to make those assumptions of you, and I respect you alot more for telling me all that.
Once you get out of college though I'm sure you'll be making alot more!
I know a couple in the same situation as you. They are both full time students, and they are having to work small jobs to make ends meet. Once he and his wife graduate and he sets up his dental office he'll be living the American dream!
I only assumed you were like most lib's. At least the one's in my family. My fathers brother completely refuses to work. My father has tried getting him a job a couple of times, but he always eventually quits and finds him a girlfriend who will support him. You do realize that under the new healthcare plan you'll be paying for him too right?
Regarding the "Death Panels" I mentioned: You are technically right, "Death Panels" are not mentioned in the bill; however, the council Obama is setting up to decide whether or not you deserve treatment is a group of Czars headed by Ezekiel Emmanuel, Rahm Emmanuel's brother, who is Obama's "Special Adviser for Health Policy"
Basically the amount of care someone recieves follows these guide lines:
Treating People Equally
1. Lottery
2. First-come, first served
Prioritarianism
1. Sickest first
2. Youngest first
Utilitarianism
1. Saving the most lives
2. Saving the most life-years
3. Saving the most socially useful
4. Reciprocity (paying back people who have "contributed", such as organ donors)
IF YOU aren't deemed worthy of receiving healthcare then you don't! Regardless of how much Taxes you pay. Sorry sir Kirby, UrbanMonk is more useful to us so he's getting brain surgery while your left to die. It's in our "Complete lives system" we never told you about! Have a nice day!
You don't have to take my word for it though. Google away!
The VERY fact that Obama is hiding(and I say hiding because these points are too important not to tell) all this from us should make everyone suspicious.
First off the proposed system is one that mimics the UK system. Which works phenomenally well because it encapsulates both options-
If you can't afford to or just choose not to pay for healthcare then you get it funded by the government (in turn funded by taxes). It's not always free either, but it means prescription medicine can be very cheap (£7 for anything that a chemist can supply). If you choose to have cosmetic surgery or non-life threatening elective surgery then you jolly well can! You just have to wait.
OR (and this is the big thing a few Americans don't get)
You go private. With a benefit under this system; due to the "free" nature of our healthcare private healthcare companies are forced to charge less than US counterparts. Competition from a free alternative brings costs down across the board. Nobody is going to be left dying on the street because the whole system will be exactly the same! Infact these people you seem to dislike will die out under what you believe UHC will bring. You and the people you do like will all have paid health insurance so nothing will change there.
"The American dream?"
Oh please. The American system is so fudged up and so benefitial to the people stealing money from hardworking people that when a president comes along who wants to change this whole system to benefit more than the upper nobilities it causes all this fuss. Doctors who are used to charging exorbitant fees along with lawyers and all that.
As for required vaccinations show me a peer-reviewed paper that says they are bad.
Fuel prices getting high in America? Come to Europe. Again this is just America used to having the easy option and now, due to socioeconomic and environmental factors this way of life can no longer be supported.
And just a sidenote. I've been hearing a lot of people saying that access to healthcare is not a "God given" right. Yet they believe it is their right to own guns. Go figure.
Couldn't agree more with you James - thankfully a lot of the Americans who voted for Obama actually understand what he's trying to do. I'm all for people having their opinions - it just annoys me when people base their opinions on lies and facts they don't even understand. Fox News doesn't help by manipulating people to follow their opinions by spreading lies. The people who didn't vote for Obama seem to be trying to come up with all kinds of excuses.
That YouTube video just shows you what the majority of these protestors are like - I personally find it disgusting.
Heh, every country has a real health care system. It most countries, health is a right. In Australia, they actually take good care of sick people, and those same people contribute a lot to society. In America, you only get health care if you have money.
The education system is also ridiculous. It's sad that so many Americans are dropping out of school or making the decision that they can make more money by never going to college. The student loan system is even sadder... it borders into plain usury and I hate that there are guides into getting federal loans.
For the richest country in the world, it sure is cheap. I'm from a third world country and education and health is a right. It keeps sticking to the word 'communism' like it's a bad word. Australia is a highly socialist, very democratic country, and it's excellent here. America is a highly capitalist country and it just fails when it comes to human rights. Ridiculous living prices, low wage, killer interest, high homelessness, high violent crime rates, I don't really see how it could get worse.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
The worst I could imagine is an all-out collapse of the US of A, just like the Soviet Union and the Roman Empire did. Yup, they have all the patterns right there, xenophobia, massive rich-poor gap, poor treatment of the lower middle class, more enemies than friends, too much % of budget spent on military, and finally, a war that they can't win.
I find it a little sad that people are complaining when the govt decides to spend a huge portion of the treasury on literally saving lives. A lot of people try to act smart about this stuff, but really, President Obama is a very smart man. The White House has a lot of smart people. They know what they're doing. It's pretty silly to say that they're wrong when most people know nothing about the budget, the govt's spending, or have several years governing a state/country.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
It doesn't take a genious to see why the us is still so backwards in many aspects in comparison with most europe countries, canada and so on.
See the people protesting ?
They are all middle to upper class people. I'm pretty sure any of them can afford a health insurance, so they don't need a public health care system, so for them the country's money should be spent elsewhere, in something that would be better suited for their own interests.
There are many families living in awful conditions who can barely afford to get food on the table, let alone buy a health insurance. If any of them gets sick or is a victim of a work accident, the whole family is pretty much done for, and will only survive thanks to the charity of neighbors and associations.
The america dream is a lie, the us isn't heaven, far from it. Being of american ancestry myself I'm ashamed when I see protests like those. They aren't there fighting for the country's interests, they are lynching mob, while some are fighting for their own interests (and not the country's), most people don't even know why they are there. And to the people saying it has nothing to do with Obama being black, that's bullshit.
US has no money for a public health system ?
That's completely ridiculous, where did the money for the iraq invasion, "peace keeping" operations in Iraq and Afghanistan and many other operations we will never hear of come from ?
So there is money for war but not for a public health care system ?
I just returned from the US. An American man asked my family "Does Sherwood forest really exist?" Last time it was "What part of London are you guys from?" The UK being only comprised of London, Liverpool and Scotland of course
I still cannot understand what the problem is - the whole healthcare plan sounds like it makes perfect sense to me! And all this "i'm here for God" sh*t some of those idiots are spouting... they really need a reality check!
The entire reason the US was formed was to get away from government control. I don't care how the healthcare is run in the UK, Canada or anywhere else.
The council Obama is setting up to decide whether or not you deserve treatment is a group of Czars headed by Ezekiel Emmanuel who is Obama's "Special Adviser for Health Policy."
I want to get something clear here. I don't disagree with creating a new healthcare system. I think it should be overhauled, but this bill is not the one we need!
Originally posted by UrbanMonk Everything Obama's tried to do thus far all involve the government getting more control over people's lives. That's the definition of Communism. http://www.google.com/search?q=define%3A+communism
A definition. That doesn't necessarily say that the definition is correct. And why Communism specifically as opposed to generic socialism?
Originally posted by UrbanMonk The new health care bill has something called "End of Life Counseling" which is basically this. If a person decided to be inadequate to live, instead of getting health care they will be taken to a counselor instead who "prepares them for death."
Originally posted by UrbanMonk I don't want all our hospital's ran by the government. My dad is a commander in the US coast guard and I've been to government run hospitals. They tried to force my mother to take birth control pills. They treat you like a number not a person. All of our private hospitals treat you the same regardless of gender, race or status/wealth as well. They don't care how much money you have. They are just there to treat you. So that argument is impertinent.
This runs under the assumption that all government-run hospitals are and will be the same as each other, and the same as these particular situations, which is not necessarily true. There are regular, non-government hospitals like this as well, I would think. How can you say all private hospitals? Have you been to all of them? Again, you're making hasty generalizations based on arguably few experiences. I've seen plenty of stories on the news about private hospitals not caring about their patients.
Originally posted by UrbanMonk Also they want to store all the medical records in a giant database. More government control means less freedom! yay! Read it in the bill here: http://www.eagleforum.org/links/pdf/HouseDemHealth.pdf#page=58
Oh yeah, and this isn't optional. If anything is requested of you about you for your medical record you MUST give them the information.
How is this government control? What are they controlling exactly, besides controlling you to get your info. It isn't like it hurts me in any way, does it?
Originally posted by UrbanMonk The poor only get poorer because they don't want to work. The one's that can't work get a check from the government already, food stamps, free education, ect.
This isn't necessarily true. They can work all they want but if someone else works harder than them then they get the money, or whatever. This leaves them behind. To be able to compete then they will need assistance and I'm not sure where I was going with this. Not all poor people don't want to work, people just don't like giving poor people jobs.
He's right even if he does kinda stereotype liberals.
Mmm... Yeah, no. This isn't exclusively Obamacare, so don't say that it explains Obamacare. It isn't like you'll suddenly be unable to go to non-government hospitals you know.
Originally posted by UrbanMonk Another reason to dislike the obamacare bill. Forced Vaccinations for children.
http://www.eagleforum.org/links/pdf/HouseDemHealth.pdf#page=838
But which vaccinations are forced? Also I'm not sure where it says that. I think you're citing the wrong pages or something.
Originally posted by UrbanMonk I only assumed you were like most lib's. At least the one's in my family. My fathers brother completely refuses to work. My father has tried getting him a job a couple of times, but he always eventually quits and finds him a girlfriend who will support him. You do realize that under the new healthcare plan you'll be paying for him too right?
I'm starting to notice you like to make assumptions based on the few experiences you've had in your life as compared to all possible outcomes. The liberals in your family are not "most liberals". I don't mind paying for this person because it keeps him alive and letting people die sounds weird.
Originally posted by UrbanMonk IF YOU aren't deemed worthy of receiving healthcare then you don't! Regardless of how much Taxes you pay. Sorry sir Kirby, UrbanMonk is more useful to us so he's getting brain surgery while your left to die. It's in our "Complete lives system" we never told you about! Have a nice day!
If you aren't deemed as worthy as another to receive healthcare then you won't receive it as soon as another under one plan. Because every other plan, government or otherwise, does not just disappear because the government starts offering healthcare.
I'm thinking people are taking that out of context. I think that his subject changes from that specific woman to people and health in general, and it's just about the most balanced option in terms of economic viability to health concern. Isn't that what capitalism is about, economically viable decisions? I'm a capitalist. It's fun.
Originally posted by UrbanMonk The US taxes WILL ALSO cover illegal aliens who don't pay taxes at all under this new bill!
I have the page number on the bill where this is located. Check it out here- http://www.eagleforum.org/links/pdf/HouseDemHealth.pdf#page=170
Again, can't find it. Just copy and paste the words and tell me how you interpret them.
Originally posted by UrbanMonk I want to get something clear here. I don't disagree with creating a new healthcare system. I think it should be overhauled, but this bill is not the one we need!
Elaborate then. Oh yeah, how did the Complete Lives thing come in here?
Now I feel like I have to go analyze everyone else's points.
Malaysia has a health care system that gives free health care to my diabetic grandpa, my crippled mother-in-law with damaged kidneys, my high blood pressure mother, my best friend who had a damaged heart, and another friend who got his leg snapped off. Australia, which has a similar size and demographic to the USA has better health care, privatized, but affordable (even though it doesn't cover dentistry). The USA has horrible health support.. you see people selling off their houses to stay alive.
Almost every other country in the world, including the dirt poor ones have a heath care system that works. Americans, with all their money and smart people can't even get a health system that serves people properly. I don't really care about the excuses they make about why it can't work.. why can't they look at another country where it does work? Are they so arrogant that they "don't care how other people do it, even though it works"? If poor countries with huge populations like Indonesia can serve everyone, why does the USA, the world's only superpower, have to pick who gets health care?
But really now, what else are they going to do with the money? Cheaper fuel prices? Tax cuts for the rich (yeah, the last president did that). Weapons research? Maybe it's better spent searching for aliens? Or searching for Osama? Yeah, avenging 10 thousand victims of terrorism is better than giving health care to over 46 million citizens.
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
I can see you've all had a healthy helping of haterade. I'd jump in, but I've learned there is really no point in arguing about these things here, of all places. It just stirs up negativity between members.
These threads are always bad news, and never ever accomplish anything.
Here are some quotes from that site with my political analysis :
"Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process) Barely True: Section 123 establishes a Health Benefits Advisory Committee that makes recommendations on what types of health insurance coverage will be defined as basic, enhanced or premium. The committee will be chaired by the surgeon general, with members appointed by the president, the comptroller general, and representatives of federal agencies. This committee makes recommendations on insurance regulations, so in that sense it does set standards for benefits. But it does not make decisions about treatments for individuals."
Who do you think that committee is?
Obama appointed a bunch of unconstitutional Czars, one of which is Ezekiel Emmanuel.
Ezekiel Emmanuel came up with this plan for deciding who get healthcare - http://www.ncpa.org/pdfs/PIIS0140673609601379.pdf (Yes I've already said this. Someone please prove me wrong)
Next "proof" that I noticed was this-
"Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free health care services. Pants on Fire! Section 152 includes a generic nondiscrimination clause, which says insurers may not discriminate with regard to "personal characteristics extraneous to the provision of high quality health care or related services." It says nothing about "non-US citizens" or immigrants, legal or otherwise. In fact, the legislation specifically states that undocumented aliens will not be eligible for credits to help them buy health insurance, in Section 246 on page 143."
Isn't this the same thing they said about illegals getting welfare, but yet they still are. If an illegal passes over the border and has a child in the US that child is considered a citizen so they get money for that child from the government. They WILL be able to earn healthcare credits by having a child in the US. There is no where in the bill that show's a system to prevent this. Same as the welfare system.
Thanks for all the (rather long) replies. I'll read the rest later. I have to go cut my lawn.
Originally Posted by OldManClayton I can see you've all had a healthy helping of haterade. I'd jump in, but I've learned there is really no point in arguing about these things here, of all places. It just stirs up negativity between members.
These threads are always bad news, and never ever accomplish anything.
They accomplished something!..Some of the longest replies in history?
A healthy debate can't hurt every now and then?
But... maybe it's because you never jump into the debates that everybody likes you so much?!
This is actually probably the first big debate that has happened since I've been here that I haven't participated in. You all can have fun, it just seems like useless worry to me... I don't think anyone is going to change their fundamental beliefs here. But I should just stay out of it! I forget sometimes that some people like to debate, whereas I just feel kind of sick. :S
No one will change their fundamental beliefs over this. I know that, but as you said, it's fun for some people!
I know no one here hates anyone. (even if they think they do )
So feel free to disagree with me OMC, I won't feel like you hate me, that's just silly!
Also
Originally Posted by Dr. James And just a sidenote. I've been hearing a lot of people saying that access to healthcare is not a "God given" right. Yet they believe it is their right to own guns. Go figure.
NO one said that access to healthcare is not a God given right.
If the government started trying to pass a bill that would give everyone free guns with their taxes I'd oppose that too!
Originally Posted by Dr. James If you aren't deemed as worthy as another to receive healthcare then you won't receive it as soon as another under one plan. Because every other plan, government or otherwise, does not just disappear because the government starts offering healthcare.
IF this said bill was passed then the private insurers would all dry up because the government would be able to undercut all the private insurers prices. Then they could make up for their loses by printing more money which will lead to increased inflation.
Inflation hurts the poor more than it hurts the rich even though both parties are hurt.
And in the end the government would own a monopoly on healthcare, so all those things I mentioned would apply everywhere.
So don't get mad at all the "big corporations," get mad at the government, they are the ones stealing your money!
Originally Posted by Dr. James If you aren't deemed as worthy as another to receive healthcare then you won't receive it as soon as another under one plan. Because every other plan, government or otherwise, does not just disappear because the government starts offering healthcare.
IF this said bill was passed then the private insurers would all dry up because the government would be able to undercut all the private insurers prices. Then they could make up for their loses by printing more money which will lead to increased inflation.
Inflation hurts the poor more than it hurts the rich even though both parties are hurt.
And in the end the government would own a monopoly on healthcare, so all those things I mentioned would apply everywhere.
So don't get mad at all the "big corporations," get mad at the government, they are the ones stealing your money!
So why hasn't that happened in the UK or any other country with UHC? We have major health insurers (BUPA) and plenty of smaller ones. We have a completely free option yet people opt to pay if you want cosmetic or quicker treatment. Infact if you're on the NHS and require treatment but they can't provide it - you get free private care instead. How is that not the greatest example of a "win win situation" ever?
Printing more money? Hah. Come on now. You have no idea of the impact that would have on the economy.
I don't think you know how this works; VAT and TAX are there so the money goes back to the government and subsidise all the things you like. Imagine if there was no tax and you got 100% of your pay cheque. Then the roads get buggered up - who pays to fix that? Or paying for a basic level of education? That kind of system doesn't work which is why we pay a portion of our income to the govenernment to make our lives easier and better. They're not stealing, (I can only speak for the UK here) but people in government aren't making all that much money as their own income. They're only getting paid as much as a Tesco manager. Most earn less than plain old NHS doctors! The overwhelming bulk of what we pay out goes on to making our country work.
And you may not be saying it but one of the arguments I keep hearing against UHC is that healthcare is not a right. Which is ludicrous.
Originally Posted by Dr. James And you may not be saying it but one of the arguments I keep hearing against UHC is that healthcare is not a right. Which is ludicrous.
I'd like to know who's saying that. At least some proof.
I've heard it before too, but only from lib's who say that people are saying that.
If I didn't think healthcare was a right I wouldn't want any healthcare at all, private, public or otherwise.
Originally Posted by Dr. James We have major health insurers (BUPA) and plenty of smaller ones. We have a completely free option yet people opt to pay if you want cosmetic or quicker treatment. Infact if you're on the NHS and require treatment but they can't provide it - you get free private care instead.
Can you give me more information on this. What private treatment do you get? When was BUPA formed? Is there laws against the government competing with free trade over there?
Originally Posted by Dr. James I don't think you know how this works; VAT and TAX are there so the money goes back to the government and subsidise all the things you like. Imagine if there was no tax and you got 100% of your pay cheque. Then the roads get buggered up - who pays to fix that? Or paying for a basic level of education? That kind of system doesn't work which is why we pay a portion of our income to the govenernment to make our lives easier and better. They're not stealing, (I can only speak for the UK here) but people in government aren't making all that much money as their own income. They're only getting paid as much as a Tesco manager. Most earn less than plain old NHS doctors! The overwhelming bulk of what we pay out goes on to making our country work.
I know what TAX was intended for, and yes part of our TAX dollars do go to the reconstruction of roads and such, but if I received 100% of my pay check than to make up for the loss in income tax, sales tax would go up. That's called the fair tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairTax ) which I would much prefer. I would prefer this system over income tax because then illegals would have to pay taxes too.
Ha ha! This is truly a good example of how different people are depending on what you are used to, I couldn't dream of a person (except a spoiled upper-class person) actually complaining about giving every person -rich or poor- a right to healthcare, especially when it's actually do-able!
I've always found the American system ruthless, horrific and the epitome of greed and egoism.
I live in Sweden, and I'd loathe our government if they would deny a fellow human being treatment just because s-/he was poor or seeking asylum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bupa
It predates the NHS by a year. Established 1947 and still, even though theres a free option, making a profit. I don't know of any drafted laws against them or the governments healthcare option but if you pay you get quicker treatment, isolated room, access to cosmetic procedures (you can buy these outside of having insurance but they do cost more) . You pay for a better service there's no denying that. But as I keep saying if you don't want to pay you still have access to operations, long term healthcare, disability aid. The populace here sees the benefits so there is no need for competition laws. There is no monopoly.
There's also the ING, AXA, Scottish Widows (they're all linked on the bottom of that page) who also provide private healthcare. But in the UK Bupa are the largest providers of such.
I've always found the American system ruthless, horrific and the epitome of greed and egoism. Bingo.
One also has to wonder if any of those protesters were bused in their insurance companies.
The system we have today in the US is no doubt highly flawed...but why? You have to look at the simple economics of the situation. The government caused the problems in the 70s when they created the system of HMOs and corporate medicine that we have today. This caused health care costs to spiral out of control by removing control over the money going into health care from consumers. This gave people no incentive to look at costs when choosing healthcare so the costs went up and are still going up. If the government gets more involved, prices will increase even more and quality will decrease more. The healthcare system that we have is NOT the result of capitalism, it is the result of government policy.
The way to fix it is to get the government out of the business of meddling in healthcare, which was far more affordable and accessible before the government got involved. If you read about what healthcare was like before the government got involved, the united states had the healthcare system that was the envy of the world. We had the finest doctors and hospitals, and thousands of privately funded charities provided health services to the poor. There were emergency rooms where no one was turned away for lack of funds. People had insurance policies for serious illness but paid cash for routine visits to the doctor. It made sense and gave doctors every incentive to keep their prices low and their quality of care high. This is the most humanitarian way to deliver healthcare in a free society.
Healthcare is so obviously not a right. America was founded on the ideas of Natural Rights...that every individual has a right to their life, liberty, and property and they gain these rights solely as a virtue of their humanity, not because the government gives them those rights. These rights cannot be taken away unless you are violating someone elses rights. So to say that healthcare is a right is to say that you have a right to other people's wealth (their property), which is so obviously not true.
Besides all of those reasons, the US constitution gives the US federal government a limited set of enumerated powers and healthcare control is not one of them. Any member of congress who votes for the healthcare bill in america is violating their solemn oath to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution of the United States of America.
And you may not be saying it but one of the arguments I keep hearing against UHC is that healthcare is not a right. Which is ludicrous.
Healthcare is so obviously not a right. America was founded on the ideas of Natural Rights...that every individual has a right to their life, liberty, and property and they gain these rights solely as a virtue of their humanity, not because the government gives them those rights. These rights cannot be taken away unless you are violating someone elses rights. So to say that healthcare is a right is to say that you have a right to other people's wealth (their property), which is so obviously not true.
Besides all of those reasons, the US constitution gives the US federal government a limited set of enumerated powers and healthcare control is not one of them. Any member of congress who votes for the healthcare bill in america is violating their solemn oath to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution of the United States of America.
So who else thinks James just got pwned? You're starting to sound like those congressmen who say that BS about the Consitution being a living document.
" You're starting to sound like those congressmen who say that BS about the Consitution being a living document. "
The thing about those people is, they are completely ignoring the fact that if the constitution needs an update, WE CAN AMEND IT. So their is no need for this living breathing document nonsense.
Everyone deserves free health care. All Americans are greedy and evil, all they do is hate each other. America is sliding backwards and becoming a third world country.
Discarded pizza boxes are an indispensable source of cheese.
What you all see of America is our pop culture and media... and let me tell you it is vulgar. There are certainly selfish stupid people in our country, but you can't expect all of America to be like what the news and TV put out, or what you see in places like New York, California, and Florida. I'm just as disgusted with that as anyone else...
"45,000 deaths a year because people can't afford health insurance.
Anyone care to justify that?"
You should be the one trying to justify the 45,000 deaths, because with public option we will have even more deaths. I'm the one saying that we had a good healthcare system before, so we should look at it what caused the problems and go back to how we were before. The great economist Ludwig von Mises once said that government institutions create unintended consequences that lead to calls for further integration, and so on into a destructive spiral of more and more government control. As I stated before, we used to have a wonderful healthcare system until the government started getting involved. In the 60s congress excluded health insurance from taxation when purchased by employers, but not when purchased by an individual. This removed money out of the hands of the consumers, and health insurance was paid for by third parties (the employers). So when consumers bought health insurance they didn't look at costs, because they didn't care....their employer was going to pay for it so it didn't matter as much. As a result, doctors started charging higher prices. Congress saw this and they thought they needed to fix this so they created the HMO system, which made things even worse. Now congress wants to intervene yet again to address the problems caused by the HMOs, but just like all the other times it's not going to work. It will just cause a greater market distortion, and the costs of healthcare will go up even more, because the consumers will become even more removed from the money going into the system.
Originally Posted by Yami So who else thinks James just got pwned? You're starting to sound like those congressmen who say that BS about the Consitution being a living document.
You can't blame James for what he thinks. Thank his media for his view on this. He's just repeating what they've told him over and over. He's just spitting it back out.
So you have to make a decision James, either we're right or your wrong.
KetchupMaster is exactly right on all the point's he's brought out. It's not something you can have an opinion on. It's facts plain and simple.
Obama's pretty slick, I'll give him that, he's got even the UK fooled.
I'm all for helping out those in need. And don't pretend we're the only ones who have been lied to, anyone and everyone will be fed lies in this day and age, and frankly any day and age!
Bottom line: It's none of the government's darned business. The more we clamor for it to control, the less we can do without it, and the more lost we are when it collapses. And it will collapse, if only because the rest of the world is so intent on it happening.
Originally Posted by marky_2 Everyone deserves free health care.
There is no such thing as free health care (besides doctors doing charity work). Any system run by the government is going to be paid for by the people one way or another. Either higher taxes, higher inflation, or higher deficits.
Originally Posted by Yami So who else thinks James just got pwned? You're starting to sound like those congressmen who say that BS about the Consitution being a living document.
You can't blame James for what he thinks. Thank his media for his view on this. He's just repeating what they've told him over and over. He's just spitting it back out.
So you have to make a decision James, either we're right or your wrong.
See? Typical American arrogance. Why waste time rationalizing with them when you're just going to get shot back at with responses like this, anyway?
Discarded pizza boxes are an indispensable source of cheese.
Yes that was a bit low of me to attack James on a personal level.
I just get upset when so many people believe what Obama is saying.
I sometimes wonder if Obama even believes these things himself or if he really isn't coming up with these ideas.
I'm all for changing the healthcare system, but by change I mean getting rid of Goverment interference with or exchange of goods and services. Which includes healthcare.
There was a time when prices for healthcare was low as KetchupMaster said:
"The system we have today in the US is no doubt highly flawed...but why? You have to look at the simple economics of the situation. The government caused the problems in the 70s when they created the system of HMOs and corporate medicine that we have today. This caused health care costs to spiral out of control by removing control over the money going into health care from consumers. This gave people no incentive to look at costs when choosing healthcare so the costs went up and are still going up. If the government gets more involved, prices will increase even more and quality will decrease more. The healthcare system that we have is NOT the result of capitalism, it is the result of government policy."
The Government needs to get out of the healthcare business before they screw even more things up.
And this is clearly turning into a "my country is better than yours" war, which is dumb considering all countries have major positives and flaws. Such a waste of time, it's not going to get us anywhere.
Oh and by the way
"Obama's pretty slick, I'll give him that, he's got even the UK fooled."
A lot of Americans thought Tony Blair was a nice guy
And this is clearly turning into a "my country is better than yours" war, which is dumb considering all countries have major positives and flaws. Such a waste of time, it's not going to get us anywhere.
Exactly, Thanks Adam.
I'm glad we all agree on this point.
We need not look at what's going on in the US and think it's the same situation that we're in. Just because a nationalized healthcare system works somewhere else doesn't mean it works in the US. And vice versa.
Originally Posted by marky_2 See? Typical American arrogance.
This coming from someone who just called an entire country's worth of people greedy and evil? My foot. Adam is right, all countries have positives and flaws. All people are selfish to a degree, no matter where they live. If I were to start saying such things about other countries I'd be considered a huge bigot. But hey, since we're all on the America Sucks wagon, we can say what we want about it. Who's-More-Arrogant arguments are positively absurd and hilariously hypocritical, but you've got to realize how that sounded. What would you say if I told you your entire country sucked and was stupid and there was no hope for it?
Ok, so now I've expressed my frustration at the irrelevant and unfair portion of this discussion, I think I'll butt out again. I have tater tots to make.
Originally Posted by marky_2 All Americans are greedy and evil, all they do is hate each other. America is sliding backwards and becoming a third world country.
I somehow don't believe he actually meant that. He might have just been being sarcastic. That's what I got out of it anyway. So I wouldn't take that to heart.
I thought he was at first too, (Hence the monocle comment. The monocomlement) but now I think it was more of a trap. Regardless, my previous post is directed at everyone who just jumped in to hate on America.
For the record, I do think America needs help and a lot of people have a selfish problem. It's just that I'd prefer we weren't all condemned at once.
Also, I might like to add that I'm not trying to be a stubborn fart or offend anyone. This is why I hate these threads. Because I get pulled in and feel like I'm being mean.
I think the selfishness is also part an issue of government being involved. People think, "oh we don't need to donate to charities, cause the government will take care of the poor people". If the government wasn't going to try to take care poor people and the government didn't tax us so excessively, people would probably feel more obligated to donate to private charities.
Selfishness is what causes us to want the government to take care of everything for us, (and also for people in power to want to expand the government) I wouldn't say it's the other way around. Though they do kind of egg each other on. Like the electric and magnetic fields that make up light.
Selfishness is just the product of selfishness. It's a trait that we all share, and something that a lot of people haven't learned to ignore as best they can. What caused THAT is a whole different explosion of opinions and yadda yadda bla bla bla
I had a lot typed out addressing things brought up about universal health care. I don't want to plague you all with it, (that and I'm ready to go about doing more useful things than watching this thread) but really what it comes down to is not that we don't want to help people that need help, it's that we don't want to not have the choice whether to do so, especially under the direction of the government. And even more especially so if some of it is spent on self-inflicted health issues due to purposeful negligence or just plain... stupidity.
Ok even if these rediculous statements about "death panels" or the idea of covering illegal immigrants were actually in the bill outline (they're not) it wouldn't matter considering the bill has not been finalized and is still in the planning stages by both democrats and republicans.
"The system we have today in the US is no doubt highly flawed...but why? You have to look at the simple economics of the situation. The government caused the problems in the 70s when they created the system of HMOs and corporate medicine that we have today. This caused health care costs to spiral out of control by removing control over the money going into health care from consumers. This gave people no incentive to look at costs when choosing healthcare so the costs went up and are still going up. If the government gets more involved, prices will increase even more and quality will decrease more. The healthcare system that we have is NOT the result of capitalism, it is the result of government policy.
The way to fix it is to get the government out of the business of meddling in healthcare, which was far more affordable and accessible before the government got involved. If you read about what healthcare was like before the government got involved, the united states had the healthcare system that was the envy of the world. We had the finest doctors and hospitals, and thousands of privately funded charities provided health services to the poor. There were emergency rooms where no one was turned away for lack of funds. People had insurance policies for serious illness but paid cash for routine visits to the doctor. It made sense and gave doctors every incentive to keep their prices low and their quality of care high. This is the most humanitarian way to deliver healthcare in a free society.
Healthcare is so obviously not a right. America was founded on the ideas of Natural Rights...that every individual has a right to their life, liberty, and property and they gain these rights solely as a virtue of their humanity, not because the government gives them those rights. These rights cannot be taken away unless you are violating someone elses rights. So to say that healthcare is a right is to say that you have a right to other people's wealth (their property), which is so obviously not true.
Besides all of those reasons, the US constitution gives the US federal government a limited set of enumerated powers and healthcare control is not one of them. Any member of congress who votes for the healthcare bill in america is violating their solemn oath to preserve, protect, and defend the constitution of the United States of America."
And Regarding the "Death Panels" I mentioned: You are technically right, "Death Panels" are not mentioned in the draft of the bill; however, the council Obama is setting up to decide whether or not you deserve treatment is a group of Czars headed by Ezekiel Emmanuel, Rahm Emmanuel's brother, who is Obama's "Special Adviser for Health Policy"
Anywho who says FoxNews is biased and ignores all of the other biased media is a joke. Trying to turn this into a debate about who wants to save lives is completely irrelevant from anything that has been said thus far. Everyone and myself has no problem with people having healthcare; however, we obviously do not agree on how this should be done.
And for an even more obvious example on whose idea really works. Look at California's economy compared to Texas.
"Also, I believe your term of communism needs to be rethought out. There is a difference between it's theory and principles rather than the shit examples history has shown us so far or the warped statements people spew out in fear."
Now just because it has failed everytime since its existence doesn't mean it sucks.
Originally Posted by Yami So who else thinks James just got pwned? You're starting to sound like those congressmen who say that BS about the Consitution being a living document.
You can't blame James for what he thinks. Thank his media for his view on this. He's just repeating what they've told him over and over. He's just spitting it back out.
So you have to make a decision James, either we're right or your wrong.
After reading though this post, can someone please show me the American hospital that turns people away when they have an emergency or sickness?
A lot of these libs are posting "X num of deaths because of no health care" blah, blah, blah... Bull crap. No one dies because they don't have a private health care plan. Hospitals in the US do not turn people away. They treat you first then...THEY BILL YOU LATER. No death.
I don't watch tv news either. Ever. I get my news off the internet from wherever google sends me!
EDIT: Never watched fox news.
I've seen cnn a few times though
If you think what happened to that women was bad just wait until the government takes it over and the waiting times become even longer!
Where was the woman's family? If they really cared about her they would've been there with her!
I'm not saying the hospital was right in what they did, especially since they ignored her completely after she fell!
EDIT2: Hey JustinC you ought to read through the thread before posting anymore questions. I've already acknowledged most of them, so I'd just be repeating myself.
I hardly ever watch TV either... :\ especially if it's news.
That lady might not have had family. In another case I hope non-family around would see to helping her, or she would seek out help. But she was in a psych ward, which I don't know much about and I'm sure are living nightmares.
Also, what UrbanMonk said wasn't really an argument. It was a response so someone saying someone else was pwned. In a weird kind of way, it was a joking defense for the person... I think.
I hate listening to the news. It's always doom and gloom, or what celebrity did what, ect.
I just listen to music these days.
You just can't avoid news like this though(referring to the healthcare bill) especially when my friend emailed me the march on Washington which is why this thread started in the first place.
I didn't want it to turn into a political war, but I should know better.
What else do these things turn into? Argument is inevitable. I get depressed when I watch any TV, and not just because of current events. I get more depressed at just how depraved our culture has become. :S There's some downright disgusting stuff on freely accessible channels...
Thanks for that Jon! See OMC she did have a family. Money is never worth a human life though.
Well OMC to tell you the truth I don't have a Television in my house at all because of the junk that's on it.
It started getting really bad in the last 10 years really.
What about Nickelodeon or Cartoon Network or Disney Channel or Food Network or the Travel Channel or Discovery Channel or those things? Those are awesome TV.
Can't afford satellite or cable, unfortunately. We went on our first vacation in years this past summer and all had a blast watching History Channel and Scifi in the hotel!
Do you not have anything like Digital TV? Here in the UK most Television installments without cable/satalite just have 4-5 standard channels, but then came the freeview/digital boxes, which are/were a one off payment giving users 80ish channels for free.
Now the boxes are being scrapped and soon only digital TV will be available, meaning everyone will need digital capability Television sets, but get 80+ channels, including radio channels and cheaper, crappy channels like chat and date channels .
Originally Posted by -Adam- Do you not have anything like Digital TV? Here in the UK most Television installments without cable/satalite just have 4-5 standard channels, but then came the freeview/digital boxes, which are/were a one off payment giving users 80ish channels for free.
Now the boxes are being scrapped and soon only digital TV will be available, meaning everyone will need digital capability Television sets, but get 80+ channels, including radio channels and cheaper, crappy channels like chat and date channels .
We Just switched to DTV not too long ago. It'll take a bit before we make full use of them. But then again, cable/ satellite here have the benefit of not being censored by the FCC, so local channels may remain forever few. I don't know what it's like in the UK.
Well this thread just deteriorated pretty quickly in the last two pages. I commend you on stimulating the earlier debates UrbanMonk, questioning views and contemplation is always beneficial.
Actually he "left" for other reasons (That I hope we can address.) and dropped in to contribute to this thread shortly. He soon realized it was not worth it and left again.
Originally Posted by -Adam- Oh, is that what you call it? Interesting how your "break" happens to end when your name is mentioned.
Yes the effects of MSN Messenger and having friends on the board are quite magical aren't they.
As usual there was no answer so I'll ask again;
"Taking a break from the interent in general without notification is a "cry for attention"?"
Well having spoken to you on msn in the past, on many occasions you've made grand announcements that you'd be leaving because something wasn't going your way. Whether it was people not giving you enough attention, not agreeing with you, or Phizzy making new accounts after being banned. Pretty petty, really.
Speaking of health care, i need to go and get a Flu shot. Don't want to get sick. Also i want the Doctors to make the N1H1 Shot faster so I don't have to worry about it.
I've already had N1H1. It lasted about 8 days.
It's not the flu that kills you. It's the after effects.
It's especially bad for those who have breathing problems.
Well, I'd rather not get either virus if it's all the same to you Being sick isn't really in my schedule, so if i do get sick, i hope it's on vacation.
Yeah... I got a phone call, was offered a $100 dollar gift card if I was to be tested on by the shot (this was pretty recent too) so I certainly don't plan to get a vaccination that could very well kill me.
Doctors are EXTREMELY defensive when it comes to the vaccinations that children/people get nowadays (one male doctor actually cried when he couldn't hold up his side of the argument), you know, the links to mental health problems and such, so they are probably also going to dismiss any complications with the swine flu vaccinations.
But this is just my opinion, I'm sure it's worth the risk for certain people.
Why the hell would anyone consider taking a vaccination that's been created and released in under a year? The test group for that shot was tiny and no one knows the long term effects. Unless you're an aging old fart, pregnant mother, diagnosed with a serious immune deficiency disorder, there's NO reason for healthy adults and youths to take it. N1H1 is a pandemic.
Originally Posted by Dr. James Yes the effects of MSN Messenger and having friends on the board are quite magical aren't they.
You were talking to a friend on msn messenger while on a break from the internet? Something isn't adding up Anyway, good to see that you haven't left. I'm totally planning to post a picture of a disgruntled Scottish man when it's my time to leave, so I'm glad the idea hasn't been taken yet.
Most people practically ARE forced to get vaccinations, you can't go to school without vaccinations if you don't go to school, you/your parents get jailed.
Same sort of situation for health-care workers, they aren't allowed into hospitals if they don't have vaccinations, so they don't get paid.
Originally Posted by Marko I wondered where James had gone too - nice to hear you're 'back', Dr.!
I was going to make a thread asking whats been up recently but just didn't . In a nutshell I'm working on 3 games planned for release this year, and the big one early next year. Doing a bit of teaching at college too and generally just spending time with the girlfriend. Got a few gigs doing art and articles for various folk. So just real life stuffs... I guess!
Originally Posted by nim
You were talking to a friend on msn messenger while on a break from the internet? Something isn't adding up
By internet I meant websites. I don't have the time to visit most sites, not even doing much with my own site at the moment. Email, Steam, MSN are always on. They're unavoidable.
Originally Posted by UrbanMonk That only applies if you go to public schools. With the new healthcare bill they can come to your house and force you to take it!
Ok I switched off for a bit when it comes to US politics. I find it hard to believe that vaccinations will be forced, but like I said I haven't been following recently!
You people are funny. Vaccinations have been done for centuries and have ended plenty of otherwise fatal pandemics. They do make you a little sick, but the whole point is making you sick once so you'll be immune to the sickness. I've never heard of any side effects from them either; the worst they can do is overdose you and make you almost, but not quite as sick as if you caught whatever they're trying to prevent. Or underdose and have no effect.
The whole point of this bill is to make everyone healthier. I'm starting to see less and less sense in the protests
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.
I really don't care if it's widespread or not. It's not the governments place to tell me that I have to get fluid injected into my body that may or may not be fatal to me. No Thanks.
I'm not against vaccines; I get them when I need them. I just want to have a choice in the matter. The fact that they are trying to shove this under the rug gets me worried.
I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just letting you know where I'm coming from.
Specifically these lines of information caught my attention:
"In an exclusive Newsmax interview, Dr. Blaylock points to other ominous provisions in the bill, HR 3200, which he says would:
# Severely discourage the readmission of patients to a hospital after they have been treated, and punish doctors and hospitals if they do readmit them.
# Require medical practitioners to document their dealings to the extent that they won't have enough time to adequately treat their patients.
# Jeopardize the confidentiality of patients' medical records, including psychiatric reports."
Can anyone verify that these points are true? I've heard this from someone else, but this is the first I've seen of it on the internet.
Yeah maybe you're right. I guess it's not accomplishing much. However if anyone does know anything about what I posted feel free to add your two-cents.
Originally Posted by Muz You people are funny. Vaccinations have been done for centuries and have ended plenty of otherwise fatal pandemics. They do make you a little sick, but the whole point is making you sick once so you'll be immune to the sickness. I've never heard of any side effects from them either; the worst they can do is overdose you and make you almost, but not quite as sick as if you caught whatever they're trying to prevent. Or underdose and have no effect.
The whole point of this bill is to make everyone healthier. I'm starting to see less and less sense in the protests
I'm not against vaccines (hell I'm getting my yellow fever in less than a month) it's just that with some vaccines today a disease pops up and they synthesize a vaccine in the lab immediately. With the H1N1 vaccine there was a small test group and it was produced within a couple of months. There is no evidence as to what longterm effects could be.
I really don't care if it's widespread or not. It's not the governments place to tell me that I have to get fluid injected into my body that may or may not be fatal to me. No Thanks.
I'm not against vaccines; I get them when I need them. I just want to have a choice in the matter. The fact that they are trying to shove this under the rug gets me worried.
I agree with that 100%. The government has no right to force me to get something injected into my body. That's absurd.
In 1976, there was another outbreak of the swine flu, similar to today. The government quickly made some flu shots and they were going to inoculate everyone and save the world. It turned out though that the flu came and went and only 1 person died from the actual swine flu, but over 25 people died and many got very sick from getting the government's flu vaccine and they ended up having to shut down the whole program. The point being that even though the vaccine may work, it should be your personal choice to get it, and it should never be forced on you.
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Edited by UrbanMonk
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... oh, wait 
(Yes I've already said this. Someone please prove me wrong)
